Sean Maguire: she [Irshad Manji] is not a muslim at all, or a woman she is human garbage.
Claire Khaw: Why do you dislike her?
Sean Maguire: anyone who uses terms like "progressive" and any "muslim" viewed by the western world with esteem is a traitor, to put it simply. Any "muslim" who supports sodomites isn't a real muslim, and one look at her with her dyke haircut and clothes scream that she wants to be more european than the europeans themselves are. She exemplifies everything wrong and dangerous in Europe. Europe and the west are infected with a disease of liberalism and cultural marxism and the world needs to quarantine it before it spreads further.
Claire Khaw: Do you know what reforms she proposes?
Sean Maguire: "Manji was awarded Oprah Winfrey's first annual Chutzpah Award for "audacity, nerve, boldness and conviction." " - if that isn't reason enough to find her disgusting i dont know what is
Sean Maguire: she supports Israel, sodomites "marrying", and basically making Islam a sanitized, abstract notion without any actual values. She's a feminist.. i mean honestly this thing represents everything and i mean everything i hate in the world all neatly wrapped in one ugly package.
Claire Khaw: Farouk A. Peru, do you support sodomites "marrying"? I know you think deny that the Koran forbids gay sex.
Sean Maguire: The Qur'an specifically forbids it actually, there is no bones about it. Anyone who tries to claim otherwise is simply picking and choosing what they want to believe.
Farouk A. Peru: Claire , I support any arrangement that protects the rights of a person. I don't believe the Quran forbids homosexuality, no.
Claire Khaw: Farouk, can you tell us again why you deny the existence of 4:15 and 4:16?
Farouk A. Peru: Do I deny it? I think it's you denies it, Claire. For a person who criticises Sunni Islam, you seem to be uncritically accepting Sunni translations.
YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
PICKTHAL: As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
SHAKIR: And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
YUSUFALI: If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful.
SHAKIR: And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
Claire Khaw: Are the Shias gay-friendly then, Farouk?
Farouk A. Peru: Please lets keep to the subject ok. So the question remains : WHY do u uncritically accept these translations?
Claire Khaw: What a strange thing to say when the Iranians hang homosexuals!
Sean Maguire: I read the Qur'an and while the Bible is far more vague (perhaps the modern translation anyway) and there is the excuse used by so called progressive christians that the Old Testament is somehow cancelled out by the new, or whatever, i distinctly recall the Qur'an mentioning male on male explicitly as something prohibited. I'm not going to dig up the chapter right now, or the verse or whatever, i may when i wake up later, but i read what i read. Also: I highly doubt the shia interpretation on sodomites would differ significantly from the sunni on this.
Claire Khaw: The Iranians are Shias, Farouk.
Claire Khaw: I have asked you to give us your translation then. Are you saying the above 3 translations I have cited above are wrong and that yours is correct?
Farouk A. Peru: oh thanks, Claire. I am still waiting for the answer: WHY do u uncritically accept these translations?
Farouk A. Peru: I will as as soon as you tell us how you formulated your opinion. Remember it is you who proposed there is a default position. If you have no proof, doesn't make u simply a blind sheep being by the Anjem Choudhurys of this world?
Sean Maguire: One thing i DO recall is in the 40 Hadiths execution is reserved for only two offenses. I believe the first was murder and the second was a muslim converting to another faith. There is nothing unjustifiable there, as its akin to being a traitor as far as i'm concerned.
Farouk A. Peru: Sean , if you don't know the difference between Quran and hadith, then really don't waste time accusing people. It'll only expose your lack of research.
Sean Maguire: I do know the difference. when did i confuse the two?
Farouk A. Peru: You said 'the quran specifically forbids it. Then you went to hadith. Please stick to the issue at hand - does the Quran forbid it? If so, where please?
Sean Maguire: Then again perhaps your translation of the Qur'an endorses rock music, sodomy and free basing and who am i to say my translation is better
Sean Maguire: i was addressing Khaw's comment on Iran and that execution story.
Farouk A. Peru: We can get to all those things, no problem at all. For now, I'm waiting for our wise Claire to tell us why she uncritically accepted these translations.
Claire Khaw: If there is a better translation than the ones I have given above, then kindly cite it, Farouk.
Farouk A. Peru: no sorry, i will *not* discuss my translation until :
1. u admit that you dont know what the Quran ACTUALLY says.
2. u admit that you have accepted views from the Anjems of this world.
Once you do so, I'll be glad to totally deconstruct Yusuf Ali, Pickthall and Shakir.
Claire Khaw: You want to win before you will begin negotiations??
I am happy to admit that I do not know Arabic.
I am also quite happy to point out that both the Old and New Testaments condemn homosexuality.
Since the Koran is a confirmatory document of the previous two Abrahamic faiths, I would be very surprised indeed if it did not condemn homosexuality.
I can only take the basis of the English translations of the Koran as my guide. Are you saying that the translations above are wrong and that your translation is correct?
Let's have your translation then.
Claire Khaw: Farouk wrote: "Do I deny it? I think it's you denies it, Claire. For a person who criticises Sunni Islam, you seem to be uncritically accepting Sunni translations."
I don't criticise Sunni Islam. I criticise those who follow the Hadith when it clearly contradicts the Koran.
Claire Khaw: I do hope we will hear from Farouk again with his correct translation before too long.
[That was yesterday.]
Claire Khaw: Farouk A. Peru, please don't leave us hanging in suspense! [This was today.]
http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com/2011/12/few-hours-with-koranists.html demonstrates that we have been down this road before and it remains the case that I cannot get a coherent response from Farouk. Perhaps this time I will get a little further. I am determined that Farouk does not get away with his hit and run style of debate yet again.
http://www.facebook.com/claire.khaw/posts/10150661573749424 has the discussion about the translation.