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Wednesday, 2 October 2013

Abdassamad Clarke the Muslim scholar blocks Claire Khaw from his Facebook page

Clarke is Dean at http://themuslimfaculty.org/

He disapproves of Secular Koranism but refuses to say why.

Their previous discussion was at http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/the-exchange-adassamad-clarke-and.html  More than once I requested a clarification of his views, but he refused to give a substantive answer and then blocked me.  Intellectual dishonesty, anyone?



Abdassamad Clarke
If anyone has something to post that is germane to the posts on this wall and they can say it in a civil and courteous manner, they are most welcome but rudeness will not be tolerated, just as advertisements and random pieties are also not welcome.

Discourteous posts will be deleted and, in extreme cases, their authors will be blocked.

David Rosser Owen, Mohammed Abbasi and 17 others like this.


Claire Khaw 
All that I have posted are relevant to the points I am making though, which none of you seem to be able to grasp.

Abdassamad Clarke 
You haven't read what I posted. Relevance itself is irrelevant if it cannot be done with courtesy. The most terrifying image from the Napoleonic Wars is 'the loose cannon'.


Claire Khaw
Do any of you, for example, acknowledge that feminism is a problem? Or are you too afraid to even discuss this?
If is in necessary to be a little brutal to point out a few home truths, I do not see what is wrong with it. Even now I am not sure if my points have been grasped.
What is necessary is moral, is it not?

Abdassamad Clarke 
Whether or not you see the point of it or not, I will delete rude posts and block rude people insha'Allah. You can be necessary all by yourself.
Some people just enjoy being alone and driving even potential friends away.

Claire Khaw
"You can be necessary all by yourself."

That makes no sense at all.

I am far from being alone. More people have heard of me than they have heard of you.

Abdassamad Clarke
More people have heard of Marilyn Monroe than have heard of you or me, but she lived and died utterly alone.

Claire Khaw
I do not intend to die like Marilyn Monroe, but it is kind of you to compare me with her.
I note that you have made no attempt to discuss Secular Koranism at all.
I don't think you like discussing things much, do you?

Abdassamad Clarke

You and I have discussed that at some length, I thought. But you do not accept my arguments.

As I said, courtesy is the leaven of discussion. Without it, it goes flat and bakes into a hard brick that breaks the teeth.

Claire Khaw
I would like more people to discuss it. Not all people will think like you. You know it is an important and world-changing idea but you have chosen not to discuss it on your walls, probably because it is not your idea.

Abdassamad Clarke
I have chosen not to discuss it on my wall because it is a misleading idea and because its proponents just insults people. If you looked at my input on Facebook you will find me involved in multiple places in all sorts of discussions many of which I have not started.

Claire Khaw 
Let's face it, you and your ilk are a bunch of tired frightened old men who haven't the first idea about what to say or how to say it.

Abdassamad Clarke
I will happily discuss things I do not agree with.

Since you have no clear argument you resort to abuse and come close thus to being blocked.
Since you have no respect for me and for the people I respect, how will you accept anything that we say? And what use then is discussion?

Claire Khaw
I have a very clear argument which you wish to suppress and will not allow me to develop because you censor and delete my comments.

Abdassamad Clarke
I have deleted all your comments because they are offensive not because I have any trouble with your argument.

Claire Khaw
There is no requirement for us to respect each other to understand each other's ideas.

Abdassamad Clarke
The trouble with your argument is that you are unable to hear anyone else's argument. A conversation involves more than one person.

Claire Khaw
I hear your argument all right. You dislike Secular Koranism and therefore wish to suppress it.

Abdassamad Clarke
I suggest you cease writing now and think a little bit about it all. You are welcome to come back and post, but the minute you are rude, I will delete your posts, and if you insist, I will block you insha'Allah.

Claire Khaw
That is why you will not discuss it here or anywhere. I am not stupid.

Abdassamad Clarke 
It has nothing do with dislike whatsoever. I have rational arguments which you do not accept.

Claire Khaw
You wish to "protect" your followers from this idea that you dislike.

All your followers do here is praise you and "like" your comments without contributing anything at all of interest.

Janet Husam
I think Claire it is time for you to perhaps write a e-mail to Abdassamad Clarke as you are in fact looking very stupid

Abdassamad Clarke
I have no 'followers' except in the Facebook sense. And even if I wanted to, it is impossible for me to protect them from arguments that I do not like. In fact, the best protection would be to expose them to them so that they gain immunity. You are missing the point.

Claire Khaw
At https://www.facebook.com/groups/466234513398453/ a discussion group I run, speech is free and debates robust.
about an hour ago · Like

Abdassamad Clarke
Very good. Then I recommend that whoever wishes to find out about the evils of feminism, slutism and the merits of Koranic Secularism should go and visit your discussion group.

Claire Khaw
Thank you for not deleting that link. I half expected you to do so.

Abdassamad Clarke
You are welcome.

Claire Khaw
People are very welcome to go there to attack those ideas too.

What shall I say in my email, Janet?

It is Secular Koranism actually.
I really don't see why Muslims are so hostile to an idea that proposes that UK laws should be based on Koranic principles.

Abdassamad Clarke
You really don't get it at all. It has nothing to do with hostility.

Claire Khaw
What are your objections then?

Abdassamad Clarke
You really don't remember! We had such a discussion about it.

Claire Khaw
They were very vague.

Abdassamad Clarke
I  knew you were not really 'reading' what I wrote.

Claire Khaw
I think you were basically saying that non-Muslims should not be able to benefit from Koranic principles.

Abdassamad Clarke
No, because you are self-centred, you cannot hear any other's point of view.

Claire Khaw
Which is why we needed to continue this discussion.
Is it not your position that those who do not believe in God should not have the benefit of being commanded by God's laws?

Abdassamad Clarke
The Qur'an is revealed for all mankind. Allah addresses all mankind. The Prophet, peace be upon him, was sent as a mercy for all creatures. The Shariah has inbuilt the permission for non-Muslims to continue under Muslim rule where that pertains.

Now you basically attribute arguments to me that are absurd rather than trying to understand what I said.

Claire Khaw
Then you did not make yourself clear or I did not understand you properly. Fortunately, we now have this opportunity.

Abdassamad Clarke
I knew that you did not understand me properly when we corresponded, but you would not listen. You only like the sound of your own voice.

Claire Khaw
You have still not made yourself clear. What moral objection would you have to Secular

Abdassamad Clarke
That you raise 'moral objection' really shows that you have not listened to anything at all that I have said. And now you want me to repeat the arguments when I have absolute proof that you do not listen?

أبو ريان
Abdassamad Clarke
Why are you wasting your time?

Abdassamad Clarke
Indeed.

Claire Khaw
I doubt if anyone here knows what you are on about.
Are you saying you refuse to make clear to me what your objection is?

Abdassamad Clarke 
Claire Khaw, desist now or I will block you. There has been more than enough. Stop and reflect for a bit.

Claire Khaw
I have already made clear to you that I do not know what you mean.
Just tell me what you do mean.

Abdassamad Clarke
I refuse to waste my time repeating what I said at great length once before, none of which you paid the slightest attention to, thus proving that I am wasting my time.

Claire Khaw
Does anyone else know what he means?
Colisha Harris?

Naush Pervez Salams shaykh,
Sorry I haven't followed the whole discussion with Claire but wondered why you call feminism evil.
We can agree some aspects of what second wave and even today's feminists call to is wrong and against Islam (e.g. abortion as a lifestyle choice or nudity as expression of the freedom). But putting those things aside as they are not fundamental to the idea or greater cause of feminism and *if working from within the principles/laws of Islam*, why is it evil to demand equality and justice for women.

Abdassamad Clarke
I have not said a single word against feminism. Anyone who wishes to discuss that should go to Claire's discussion group.

Claire Khaw
Thank you for your question, Naush.

Feminism is evil because it promotes female promiscuity. It promotes female promiscuity on grounds of gender equality, by saying that women should be allowed to be as promiscuous as men. That is its fundamental flaw.

Leon
Claire, Abdassamad is saying that he has told you before — presumably in a past conversation — at length. He is exhorting you to take a breather and think about what he said previously.

Do you recall this past conversation? I obviously cannot tell what Abdassamad's views on Secular Koranism are, as I was not privy to your first discussion.

Claire Khaw
Feminism has undermined the institution of marriage and the family, ie social cohesion. We are now atomised and suffering from anomie. The ultimate evil of feminism is that it now sanctifies gay marriage.
Leon, he did not make himself clear on the previous occasion either.

Leon 
OK, then it is up to him to re-state what his thoughts on Secular Koranism are, or not to bother.

Claire Khaw
But he won't.

Leon
Then so be it. He cannot be forced to share his opinion on it.

Colisha Harris
I haven't followed the whole discussion with Claire but wondered why you call feminism evil" because it is. I'm amazed at the number of Muslims who truly cannot understand why though. Men and women are not "equal", we each have different roles. Competing with or trying to be like men is evil and unislamic.

Michael Mould
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Five kinds of animals are mischief-doers and can be killed even in the Sanctuary: They are the rat, the scorpion, the kite, the crow and the rabid dog."

Naush Pervez
Abdassamad Clarke I was referring to a post above where you said people can join Claire's group to see the evils of feminism, slutism and koranic secularism. Sorry if I misread or misunderstood.

Khalil C Mitchell
Woke after a siesta. I saw a post with 60+ comments and I thought 'ok, this might be interesting', but when I got there the cupboard was bare. I looked back through all the posts to find an argument. All that occurred was a waste of time.

I don't understand how a post requesting courteousness and good manners has jumped into the opposite.

Naush Pervez
I see now that it's Claire making the argument against feminism. I missed the previous deleted discussion so didn't get the context.

Khalil C Mitchell
Perhaps there is a history prior to the post by Abdassamad, a previous scene. I cannot make head nor tail of comments for or against feminism. It looked to me like the original post pertained to good manners.

Manwar Ali
"Discourteous posts will be deleted and, in extreme cases, their authors will be blocked." Please do delete discourteous posts and I trust your judgement more than mine on what actually constitutes an extreme case. When a person persists on being discourteous then please do ban that person; it is the right thing to do.

Naush Pervez
Claire, different groups of women will articulate feminism differently. First wave differed radically from second wave and differs from how women across the world define themselves as feminists today. In the West they may argue for abortion and gay marriage. Elsewhere they just want women to be able to file rape reports without being punished for it or go to school without being attacked or walk the street without sexual harassment. Muslim women who see themselves feminists certainly wouldn't see it as supporting promiscuity but rather about wanting to see the rights they have in theory put into practice. It would be unfair to project your views onto them as it doesn't represent what feminism is to them. Fundamentally it's about justice and rights... peripheral issues can be disagreed on.

Abdassamad Clarke
Many people have written here and to me privately urging me to block Claire Khaw. In view of her obtuseness and refusal to engage in discussion in a courteous manner, i.e. acknowledging other people and listening to their points, then I will block her.

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