A most interesting discussion I had with Jews about Zionism before I was removed from the group and blocked by @TorahLectures on Twitter

[3:04 PM, 11/23/2017] TORAH LECTURES:

Zionism did hack Judaism. It creates bitul Torah while making people think that they're doing mitzvot. This is not Judaism.

YORCHEVED:
Definitely! Among other things

TORAH LECTURES:
I won't be surprised if people leave this group for stating that Zionism is bitul Torah but this is 100% truth. http://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Bitul_Torah

SCHRIEBER:
Isn’t Torah meant to unite not divide

TORAH LECTURES:
Torah is our life purpose. That's why a Jew is in this world. If another Jew is not living a life of Torah, although he thinks he is, isn't our job, yours and mines, to bring them to the truth. That is caring for another Jew.

SCHRIEBER:
Yes but by keeping them closer there is a better chance

YORCHEVED:
But why do u feel we are dividing with what we said? This doesn't contradict our love to all Jews. It's exactly our love bringing us to try and help others see the mistake made. Unfortunately Zionism us not Judaism. Zionism was created to destroy Judaism. Many need education in the topic because the Zionist movement was more successful at it's purpose than was reform and conservative groups (lol aleinu). Please watch the videos with an open mind. My family all served the Israeli army. I don't like Arabs or March with them but I know that even though it's more comfortable in today's time to be a Zionist, we aren't Jews because we do what's comfortable for us. We do what is right. So educate yourselves. We don't contradict love and unity.

TORAH LECTURES:
Nicely said.

MEER:
But look at the numbers of yeshiva students in Israel. It is at all time high. Clearly this is a by product of zionism.

YORCHEVED:
I don't understand where u got that conclusion. Can you explain?

MEER:
Let me ask you: Where did these students come from originally?

YORCHEVED:
Who are you asking? And which students

MEER:
Am asking you. The students in yeshivot. Once you work out the answer you will understand where I got the conclusion.

YORCHEVED:
Where did they come from. From Avraham avinu  Can u specify

MEER:
The students came from outside Israel as their families immigrated there

Without the zionist movement Meir, Ponovitz, Aish... would not be in Israel.

Today the Israeli government allows the haredim,  yeshivot to flourish by ensuring roads,  electricity, supermarkets exist

Last point : we have to love the Jewish people in its entirety. Shlomo Hamelech teaches that with the bet hamikdash. Either through the 13 gates or through the 3 metals: bronze silver and gold

So yes I thank H all the time for the Zionists

One last thought before Shabbat (coming in in 8 hours and a bit for me). Here is a test for any Torah thought or argument: think about Etz Chaim Hi that we say around akba and closing of the aachon.

ALL ITS PATHS LEAD TO PEACE AND PLEASANTNESS. If the thought, idea or argument does not pass this test then sorry to say it is not Torah.

And by the way I think "rebuke" passes this test but rebuke is so hard that most it is hardly use of at all. So you could rebuke the hijackers of Judaism but that would for sure lead to chilul H. So there is another way and it goes through the three Ts: Tefila,  Tzedaka and Teshuva. So please pray for the hijackers and give them benefit of the doubt.

CK:

To Rabbi Ahron Cohen's argument that Judaism is thousands of years old but Zionism only about 100 years old, it could be argued that Zionism was merely the political expression of a desire for return, and this desire must have been felt as soon as the expulsion had taken place, even if the term Zionism was not coined till about 100 years ago.

The Neturei Karta view appears to be that Jews must take as they find. If the people already there are already leading settled lives, then returning Jews must fit in as best they can with things as they are, without imposing their preferences. 

Since they are Palestinian Arabs, they would predictably prefer sharia, I pointed out to Rabbi Cohen of Neturei Karta above when I spoke to him on the phone. His resonse was that Jews have been living in Iran for centuries under sharia and have not been as badly treated there as they have been in Christian countries. It seems obvious to me that God if He exists must intend returning Jews to live in a theocracy. In other words, it is only as a theocracy that Israel will have the blessing of God, and I speak as an agnostic. It cannot be otherwise since God can hardly regard with favour His Chosen People living in an Israel that is in effect a US protectorate when American imperialism is now so globally reviled and its policy of imposing gay marriage globally widely resented.

Christianity has now failed in the West, and its replacement can only be Islam, in my view, because there is nothing else.  It certainly cannot be Hinduism or Buddhism, and Judaism is for Jews only. It certainly cannot be the religion of gay marriage or the religion of the gender neutral toilet and pronoun, because that would mean that laws in the West do not conform to the Noahide Laws. 
If the laws of the West do not conform to the Noahide Laws then its people and politicians must be latter day Amaleks. Jews have a religious duty to exterminate Amaleks or at the very least suppress the ideology that it operates on which is antithetical to the Noahide laws.

Since Israel is being claimed by all three Abrahamic faiths, it would be rational to choose the one that can accommodate all three most fairly.  Jewish scripture does not address the problem of the existence of Christianity, and Christian scripture does not address the problem of the existence of Islam. It is only the Koran that guarantees religious freedom of with quran.com/2/256 and gives the People of the Book a privileged status over and above the other world religions.

It even goes half way towards accommodating the Christians by acknowledging the Virgin Birth while denying the Trinity.

Having read the Koran, I can find no legal principle in it that as far as I know ought to be found objectionable by a reasonable Jew or Christian. Koranic punishments are certainly less harsh than Old Testament punishments and its laws more clearly stated than the New Testament. 

It therefore appears that Islam is the Goldilocks religion that could before too long one day be seen to be fair enough . Were my little idea to be adapted in Israel, then this would give the West more of a reason to adopt Islam or at any rate my intentionally liberal interpretation of it which nevertheless allows the verses to be interpreted literally.

If Islam is "Judaism Lite", then my interpretation of the Koran is intended to be "Islam Lite" allowing Jews, Christians and Muslims to be better Jews, Christians and Muslims and encouraging better government and better government policies than what we are currently enjoying.

Currently, observant Jews, Christians and Muslims are living in a culture that is obviously antithetical to their religious principles as well as those of their parents and grandparents who lived in a more morally orderly age.

If this idea were to be adopted, a potentially revolutionary and benign political ideology could in time correct the mistakes of the past, if Christians can be persuaded that their religion has failed and democrats persuaded that liberal democracy AKA transnational progressivism AKA feminism AKA sexual liberation only encourages their internal enemies and enrages their external enemies.

SCHRIEBER:
Rabbi mizrachi, a sefardi, also knows why my family was killed in Auschwitz
He’s no source

YORCHEVED:
A Sephardi? What does that have to do with anything

SCHRIEBER:
How does he have the nerve to know the reason the holocaust happened
He is shunned and banned by most communities for his outlandish speeches

YORCHEVED:
im sorry but that's false

SCHRIEBER:
Google his name , there are so many real tzadikim why do we have to quote a YouTube star
Quote the Lubavitcher rebbe, Moshe Feinstein , Rabbi Eliashiv

Jews that promote peace and love

CK:
Rabbi Mizrachi did not say the Holocaust did not happen. He merely said the Orthodox Jews definition of who is a Jew is much narrower than the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, which is rather wider, and it is for this reason that the numbers were inflated. He also said assimilated liberal Jews are as detestable to the gentile as the Orthodox observant Jew and being liberal and assimilating will not make the goyim hate you less. This must be true, because gentiles are divided between Liberal and Conservative, and when they become too liberal, they become failed states and when they become a failed state, everyone suffers.

SCHRIEBER:
He said it happened because we all sinned

And because the women in the gas chambers were walking immodestly

And not covered up

CK:

"A controversial ultra-Orthodox rabbi based in New York has said that fewer that one million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, claiming most of those counted among the usually cited figure of six million were not Jewish according to rabbinical law." “If your grandfather from your father’s side was Jewish, and the rest were non-Jews, [you went] to the gas chambers. They also put in the wives of Jews that were entirely non Jewish. If she hid him, or they were hidden by non-Jews, if they caught them, they killed them also,” he said in an apparent reference to the Nazis’ definition of Jewishness, which sufficed with a single Jewish grandparent.

In a lecture posted in 2013 titled “Why Did The Holocaust Happen? Torah Codes, Having Faith in God No Matter What,” Mizrachi suggested the behavior of non-religious Jews as a cause for Nazi atrocities and warned that slack observance could bring about “further tragedy.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ny-rabbi-not-even-1-million-jews-killed-in-holocaust/

Hitler in Mein Kampf often conflated the Jew with the Liberal.

First, therefore, [the Jew] goes about making up to the people for his previous sins against them. He begins his career as the 'benefactor' of mankind. Since his new benevolence has a practical foundation, that the left hand should not know what the right hand giveth; no, whether he likes it or not, he must reconcile himself to letting as many people as possible know how deeply he feels the sufferings of the masses and all the sacrifices that he himself is making to combat them. 

But even more: all at once the Jew also becomes liberal and begins to rave about the necessary progress of mankind.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

SCHRIEBER:
Earlier this year, Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi apologized for one particularly offensive statement he made on several occasions. But he has voiced, both before and since that apology, many things that reduce complex issues to simplistic and misleading sound bites. He has also repeatedly arrogated to “know” why unfortunate things happen to various people and has presented subtle statements of Chazal in superficial and deceptive ways.

That method may entertain and even stimulate some audiences, but it does no justice to the Jewish mesorah. And, especially with the worldwide audience enjoyed by any public speech these days, misleading assertions even when offered with the best of intentions, are particularly objectionable, and even dangerous.

YORCHEVED:
why you're bringing up the Koran. It's written in the iq of like a first grader and has so.many mistakes. No way it's G-d given

So I don't even understand why it's bring brought up in a Torah lectures group

CK:
I know you don't agree with the Koran but I was just saying that it appears to be Zionist!

17:104:
And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering."

YORCHEVED:
Plus they have so many versions even if one was real ever (wasn't but imagine) we'd never know which anyway

I doubt it's Zionist

Because all it talks about is killing the Jews. That's not so Zionist

I mean guessing u are talking about the version im talking about lol

CK:

It sounds like the Koran is acknowledging the right of Jews to be in Israel. Just concentrate on 17:104. What do the words mean? What do you think it means? What do they think it means?
I don't know any verse in the Koran that tells Muslims to kill Jews.

YORCHEVED:
I think that he wrote one thing here and the opposite there. Doesn't really matter cuz Arabs don't read it they just preach hate to invite terror on the Jews

Just like Nazis claim Jews are allowed to molest kids at age 3

Or the ridiculous rumor Jews eat blood for Passover

CK:
You could as an Islamic scholar what that verse means. I can't find anything about it online except a few badly written articles that don't make much sense.

YORCHEVED:
The nonsense is endless
I'm not interested enough. I can't waste time with such a book.
So what religion do u practice if any?

CK:
I find a verse in the Koran that is favourable to Zionism, and you get aggressive with me? Have you heard of the expression of not looking a gift horse in the mouth? Maybe the others are able to give it more calm consideration than you are able to. I actually don't practise any religion but I am interested in Jewish and Muslim affairs because I think Christianity is kaput. I think Zionism was a reaction to Christianity and that Christianity is inherently anti-Semitic.

YORCHEVED:
I'm not being aggressive
I just think u too are wasting time because Arabs don't care what's in their own books so why do u

CK:
Whatever the situation now, Jews were generally better treated in Muslim countries than they were in Christian countries. This is probably because Christianity is such a stupid religion they cannot ever win an argument against either Jews or Muslims so they get angry and violent and conduct the Inquisition to shut people up.

YORCHEVED:
That's true it's also a ridiculous religion.
All non Jews need to be noahide
That'll give them good and blessings

2:01:

Rabbi Mizrachi:

If you believe in the Torah, you will never be a liberal leftie. Never, because it is against the Torah. And if you believe in the Torah, you will never run to help your enemies, because it is against the Torah. If you believe in the Torah, you know Israel belongs to us, not to a fake nation that thirty years ago nobody knew who they are. To us! And it is written who it belongs to.

And you know what? I have even a bonus: it is also written in that fake book the Koran, that Israel belongs to us.

I am talking to the world, I know. You don't need the speech, I know that. I am sorry, but no offence, but this speech was not for you. It is more for the people who watch it later. Hopefully, here and there, we save a liberal or two. Some of them are just naive, they don't know what's going on. The Torah said: we will suffer from them until the end of time. Your detroyer will come from among you. You worry about the enemy? Iran, Iraq, Palestinian, Hamas, Hezbollah? Half of your country are liberal lefties. They do everything to destroy you in the United Nations, sponsor BDS, calling artists not to come to Israel. You know what's going on here? Do you know rich Jews sponsoring trips for NBA stars to Israel? For what reason? Why they give them private jet, hotels and food and trips all over Israel? For what? To show the world that not everyone put us on a ban.

YORCHEVED:
I don't hate anybody. They hate us
I'm a nice person
I disagree with gays for example but I don't go killing them. I speak normally to them
Treat them as humans who are making mistakes

CK:
I asked two Muslims what they thought it meant and all I got was a horrified silence. Rabbi Mizrachi also mentioned it in his latest video on anti-Semitism, towards the end, but he didn't cite the verse.

YORCHEVED:
So email him. He replies
I'm sure he'll answer
So are u muslim

CK:
I have heard Tel Aviv is as gay friendly as London and I have heard Rabbi Mizrachi complaining about the women who walk naked up and down the streets ...
No, I am not Muslim!

YORCHEVED:
Lol

CK:
If it's any comfort to you, these days I am accused of being a Jew.

YORCHEVED:
Sorry just trying to figure out who u are exactly

CK:
I am neither and I think Christianity is a stupid religion.

YORCHEVED:
I see
Okay well it's special u care to research.
Most people enjoy staying blinded

CK:
I am interested in politics and after investigating Islam I am now investigating Judaism. Is this OK with you? I am afraid I like Rabbi Mizrachi because he is so entertaining, but I also like Rabbi Sacks and Rabbi Kin.

I am investigating anti-Semitism, actually.

For the purposes of my investigation, I just need to pester the Muslims for an answer about 17:104. I interpret it to mean Jews can live in Israel and would be protected by God if it is a theocracy. Does anyone ever discuss this?

YORCHEVED:
Nope
Lol

CK:
I guess even if you wanted to become a theocracy, you would be afraid of the Americans withdrawing their support. If the Americans withdrew their support you would be afraid the Muslims would come and get you. But if you agreed to live under sharia then everything should be fine, in theory, because if you lived under sharia, then it would be a theocracy, and God if He exists would be pleased and bless such a theocracy where all the Abrahamic faiths would be brought forth in one gathering.

17:104:
And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering."

Jews, Muslims and Christians in one gathering ...
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=17&verse=104

TORAH LECTURES:
here is zero learning because of Zionism. The whole point of Zionism is to subtly remove Torah and promote Jewish pride that doesn't need Torah.

MEER:
I also feel that vast majority of Torah study in Israel would not happen without the 1948 declaration. There would have been nowhere to go

TORAH LECTURES:
Yes. Unless we do Torah and mitzvot. That is our hishtadlus and that's why it's important to bring as many Jews as possible back to Torah.

MEER:
And throwing stones at people not observing shabbat will surely achieve that

TORAH LECTURES:
Interesting because that hasn't happened in a long time. Also not speaking up and telling people will not achieve anything either.

Live and let live is not a Jewish concept. Every Jew is responsible for each other.

Yocheved is right about the Zionists having no choice in having people learn Torah. The Zionists want to stay in power and if that means letting people sit down and learn, they're kind of forced to let them. Not because they want to or should get any credit, but rather because they choose their battles wisely. In the meantime, they're trying to get as many people as possible to follow Zionism, a Torah free Zionism, and remove Torah this way.

CK:
I thought the Torah is your portable homeland. You certainly don't have to be in Israel to study the Torah and I speak as a non-Israeli and a gentile who has never visited Israel but would like to. It would be meaningless to call oneself a non-practising Jew. That would mean being neither fish nor fowl.

The point of being a practising Jew is that the practice of Judaism cements your identity. If all Jews were 100% practising, then the claims of Zionism would be irresistible . If no Jew were practicing, then the claims of Zionism would be meaningless and invalid. If only practising Jews were admitted to Israel, there would be enough land to share with the Palestinian Arabs.

But who is a Jew? This was controversial in Nazi Germany but the Torah is clear: the Jew who breaks the Sabbath is not a Jew and should be considered a gentile if the option of stoning is no longer considered practicable or humane. The question is still controversial because of the blacklisted diaspora rabbis whose certification of who is a Jew is not admitted by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

If Israel had only non-practising circumcised but gaily married Jews with their adopted or surrogate children, it would not exist as a nation in one generation because that would mean Israel itself is no longer complying with the minimum conditions of conforming to the Noahide laws. The point of the Noahide laws is the condemnation of idolatry and knowing what we already know of ancient Athens and Rome, idolatry is not a religion that preserves your civilisation well. Since the Abrahamic God is the most powerful deity conceivable, it would be rational to worship the most powerful deity whose laws are already handed down in scripture. Without the Torah, there would have been no New Testament. Without either, there would have been no Koran. Christianity must have been responsible for European behaviour, European imperialism and eventually American imperialism. Western imperialism is now being resisted by the Koran which is arguably Zionist going by 17:104. Judaism is certainly not the liberalism, feminism, democracy or gay marriage being promoted by your American protector. Because God if He exists would disapprove of your American protector, He is not allowing Israelis to have peaceful enjoyment of the land.

TORAH LECTURES:
I'm sorry but I have to remove you from the group. We don't give validity to fake religions in this group.