A stalled debate on Secular Koranism I had with a Muslim

https://www.facebook.com/mohammed.amin.98096721/posts/10155883283085678?notif_id=1537085537660895&notif_t=comment_mention




Muslim

can you explain the islamists? Do you actually know what is secularism? A new religion?

CK

Secular Koranism is a legal system, not a belief system. It is the only way of restoring the patriarchy and society to moral order and rational government, IMHO.

Islamists are Muslims who accept the political nature of Islam and undertake the religious obligation of jihad to enjoin good and forbid evil.

Secularism is the idea that liberal values eg feminism, gay marriage etc trump traditional marriage and family values.

Muslim

is this your own invention? On other hand is secularism a religion? Can't you see the contradiction of non-religious people that is secularists to interpret Qur'an? Do you understand that Qur'an is not written in a mysterious defunct language but in Arabic and that can be read in its original language and understood?

Note that Qur'an is not interpreted (the word is "tafseer" in Arabic) by whim of people but based on sources and long history. Any revisionist attempts are bound to fail. Often Arabic is taught for non Arab speakers (that may not be Muslim) using Qur'an and its grammar. We teach Arabic to non Muslims that want to learn classical Arabic based on Qur'an. I was taught Arabic by a Christian Palestinian based on Qur'an in Arabic.

Your proposal cannot just work. An interesting fact is that millions of Muslims know Qur'an by heart having memorised entirely. It is a tradition that emanates from time of the Prophet 1400 centuries ago. If you quote Qur'an to a Muslim audience in original Arabic and you make a mistake in pronunciation or grammar to a Muslim audience you stand to be corrected by someone in that audience that has memorised the Qur'an.

CK

The point of Secular Koranism is that it can be applied and interpreted by qualified non-Muslim lawyers who will have passed an examination in Koranic Knowledge.

Muslim

and who will accept them? Not me or any Muslim. Qur'an is a realm of Muslims, it does not belong to non-Muslims.

CK

It would take too long to convert everyone to Islam and make them learn Arabic. They are pressing social problems that must be addressed now such as normalised and widespread bastardy which has established links to crime.

If the political establishment of the West decide to adopt Secular Koranism, why would Muslims living in the West object? It would be closer to the Koran and moving away from the insanity and evil of neoconservatism and neoliberalism. It should be of interest to the Israelis too because God if He exists must intend Israel to be a theocracy. Once the laws are in place, belief will come.

Muslim

would object because religion is devoid in traditional Western societies. The governments are secular and blind to race, faith and other issues that they have decided not to be of their realm. Muslims like Jews, and others are protected by UN charter and it would be a grave violation. Will they prohibit Arabic? 

Note in Europe a least we do not live under fascism nor we have Inquisition. How could they stop what anyone to believe in whatever he or she wants to believe? Would they stop the recitation of Qur'an? You need to learn more and visit Mosques and see that Qur'an is not liturgy and a mysterious one like in other religions or subject to different versions. There is only one version of Qur'an.

CK

What is a grave violation of what? 

Will who prohibit Arabic? 

Are you implying that Secular Koranism threatens Jews and Muslims?

Muslim

UN Declaration of Human Rights. Do read, fortunately Europe is not yet China and what the Han Chinese are doing to Uighurs. 

I lumped together all religions. 

Qur'an is not written in any language but Arabic. What you see in other languages they are translations. 

I think you need to study a bit more before issuing opinions.

CK

I have said nothing that goes against Koranic principles.

Muslim

I do not understand. You are talking of banning Qur'an and bring in a new Qur'an with a secularist interpretation. But your arguments are full of flaws and are unworkable. Muslims follow their traditions and their books. You have to bring in fascism, concentration camps with re-education or worse elimination (China has one million Muslim Uighurs being "re-educated"). In Europe fascism has not won as yet. Believe me if it wins it will swallow not only Muslims but any minorities and even people thinking differently. Meet Muslims, visit Mosques and above all read so that you do not say nonsensical things and barbarities like a revisionist Qur'an.

CK

Where have I said I would ban the Koran?

Muslim

OK I give up on you.

CK

What about Secular Koranism makes you think means concentration camps?

God is with those who are patient and persevere. You have assumed the worst about Secular Koranism but when I attempt to correct you, say you give up.  

https://www.thoughtco.com/patience-perseverance-and-prayer-2004508

How many schools of sharia are there?

Muslim

Sorry Claire I rest my case. 

I have no patience for you. I know what you write about. You are targeting Islam without knowing it. 

take back your life. I have my own.

CK

How am I targeting Islam? 

Take back my life from whom? 

It is a great shame Muslims cannot have a sensible discussion about Secular Koranism and what just amounts to another school of sharia. I hope you will calm down in time and am sorry you have been upset, judging by your hysterical accusations of concentration camps.

Muslim

no I do not accept your accusation. Either you do not understand English or you are trying to subvert discussion. I told you it is an impossible task even if imposed by governments. It will not work.  

China has re-education camps with over 1 million Muslim Uighurs detained and being re-programmed. Fortunately fascism has not won yet.

CK

Because I deny your accusations, I am "trying to subvert the discussion"? 

Why is Secular Koranism an impossible task even if it is "imposed by governments"? 

What has re-education camps in China got to do with Secular Koranism? 

Can you define fascism?