WHAT CONSERVATISM REALLY ISConservatism is just another name for Liberalism when the liberal political establishment wants to appease voters who support social conservatism. Conservatism has always been subordinate to Liberalism, which is why it has never succeeded in conserving anything worth conserving or ever worked out what the hell it was supposed to conserve, certainly not the institutions of marriage and family values. We know Conservatism is kaput when gay marriage was pushed up the collective sphincter of the British public by Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron.We have already seen what happens to a society when it refuses to bury its dead and rotting ideas.
Unprincipled Man
You're surely confusing 'conservatism' as a political instinct (conservatives often rightly eschew theory), and the current Conservative Party, which is indeed a liberal party in all but name.
Claire Khaw
I want to make the point that Conservatism without principles is meaningless but I already know degenerate Western men living in a matriarchy are nihilists. Nihilists are men who have no principles they care to defend.
Unprincipled Man
Well fine, but it doesn't alter the accuracy of my comment.
Claire Khaw
I took care to discuss only Conservatism so I am not the one guilty of a category error. But I am indeed saying Conservatism is kaput. Uneducated people make category errors all the time.
Unprincipled Man
The principles I wish to defend could now only be defended 'out of the barrel of a gun.' Are you up for that?
Neither my category nor my point are erroneous.
Possibly Unprincipled Man
I suspect that you actually want a sort of "conservative" (taking the word literally) way of life in which people act in accordance with traditions, civilisation, and a valorised view of nature. you just believe (with some reason) that islam is a good way of achieving this situation...
Claire Khaw
Are you really asking a woman to fight your war with you when you cannot even defend a principle?
I am saying there is no functioning moral system in the West and I don't think British men get it, or if they do, they pretend not to understand.
Unprincipled Man
I don't recall saying that. I said that the principles I hold to are simply no longer defensible by political or civil means.
Possibly Unprincipled Man
I suppose the issue you are highlighting is that britain has tended to get by with "unwritten" rules...it has worked to some degree with some success but it is fatally weak in some ways...
Claire Khaw
What are your principles?
Possibly Unprincipled Man
Islam also has radical limitations, though not the same problems. your critique makes some sense but your solution is unsatisfactory...
Claire Khaw
Yeah, the roof always leaked slightly, but now it has blown right off.
Possibly Unprincipled Man
yes it was always a compromise (a bit like catholicism) but when it's hammered at by puritans it all collapses...
Unprincipled Man
In this context, my 'principle' is that 'multiculturalism and multiracialism' is a catastrophe for this country, and if possible it should be reversed. Other 'moral' issues, including the advance of feminism are regrettable, but secondary. I know you are fixated on the idea of 'principles,' (without really defining how and why a 'principle' matters) but excuse me if I don't give a damn about the way my concerns are described or 'categorised.'
Claire Khaw
You are just saying you would like to expel people whose presence you have always disliked and resented, but are quite unable to articulate a principle. This means you have no idea what one is. How about just pretending that you have one?
Possibly Unprincipled Man
there is a problem that if you can't state the principles you are upholding you are placed at a disadvantage against others pushing a formal agenda over time...
Claire Khaw
Unprincipled Mn is morally and intellectually disabled. He cannot even pretend to have a principle because he literally has no idea what a principle is!
Possibly Unprincipled Man
I'd disagree with you there I'm afraid 😉
Claire Khaw
You think Unprincipled Man has principles? If so, what do you think they might be?
Possibly Unprincipled Man
he's stated them above and elsewhere...seems very clearly to be a civilised and pragmatic english fellow... in a long line of such... the english will never be Chinese or Arabic...does that doom us when our technological advantage is completely depleted? maybe, we'll see...
Claire Khaw
I am reminded of an academic philosopher I was talking to who literally had no idea what a principle is either. It is beyond a joke. It must a white man thing.
It would appear that Possibly Unprincipled Man has no idea what a principle is either!
I never said the English would be Chinese, Arabic or anything else and wouldn't dream of saying such a thing.
If you want to disagree with me, why not disagree with me on something I have actually claimed?
To be clear: a principle is something you do or don't do whether you are rewarded or punished.
Possibly Unprincipled Man
no that's behaviorism 🙂
Claire Khaw
What is behaviorism?
What I meant to ask was what has anyone said that is behaviorism?
Possibly Unprincipled Man
reward and punish to inculcate behaviours is behaviorism... as pavlov with his dog...
Claire Khaw
What has this to do with anything we have discussed?
And what were you saying no to?
Unprincipled Man
There's a difference between knowing what the word 'principle' means, which we all do, and demonstrating how your 'principles' work in reality. Your principles Claire, are mostly assertions. Most 'principles' beyond hard science are merely assertions.
Claire Khaw
You have still not declared your principles. Does this mean that you have none to declare or that you don't know what one is?
Unprincipled Man
'The matriarchy is bad and should be ended' is not a principle, but an assertion, which one can either agree or disagree with.
Claire Khaw
What principles do you think I have?
Possibly Unprincipled Man
this whole conflation of "principles" with religious doctrines or dogmas is a problem. in the western tradition aristotle, plato, diogenes, kant, hegel etc. have all had philosophical systems based upon first principles which disagree with each other. we have worked out an approach which understands this situation and works with it as a limitation of the human intellect. just saying this is a "little red book" follow it...is unsatisfactory...
Claire Khaw
I knew there was some fundamental misunderstanding of my position. That the matriarchy is bad and should be ended is but a belief and an opinion, not a principle.
My principle is to always to submit to Truth, Logic and Morality. I think that is the minimum we should expect from a moral and rational individual.
Claire Khaw to Possibly Unprincipled Man
I am afraid I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Unprincipled Man
I think 'principles' are an overrated currency for sure, and your insistence on invoking them at every turn tends confirm my opinion. You could just as easily use the term 'line in the sand' and it would mean the same thing, more or less.
Possibly Unprincipled Man
all of the thinkers I cited above sought to understand and explain morality, truth, and logic. do you agree?
Claire Khaw
My definition of morality is a system of rules designed to keep the group in existence and apart from others.
Possibly Unprincipled Man
so it is basic "conservatism" (using the word literally). It's pretty valid I reckon...and the jewish religion (chosen people and all that) is quite the paradigm for that I agree...
though it's not the be all and end all...
Unprincipled Man
Claire, who is likely to reward you, or punish you, for your personal or political beliefs, or behaviour? Who will recognise and salute your efforts to 'stick to your principles?'
Claire Khaw
Thank you for making it clear yet again that you have no principles. Cattle are only motivated by the stick and carrot.
So you see no purpose in having principles at all.
Unprincipled Man
You've evaded my question. I do indeed have some 'moral principles,' rather Biblical in nature, but why do I need to discuss them in public? Why would I need to display them in order to garner public approbation from some talking heads on social media?
Claire Khaw
If you have no principles you are prepared to declare, then it can be deduced that you have no principles you are prepared to defend. If people do not know what your principles are, they won't know that you have gone against them, will they?
The question you asked is based on the assumption that one must be rewarded in this life for following principles or there is no point following them. This is entirely in harmony with your position as an atheist who is a nihilist with no principles he cares to defend.
You are asking me who will reward me for speaking the truth as I see it ie that the West is now functionally without a moral system. History will reward me if I succeed as the moral and political philosopher who proposes the adoption of Secular Koranism and oversees its adoption through the co-operation of the Fourth Estate which has also become the First Estate.
Unprincipled Man
No, you've missed my point. Your assertion was that principles are defined by a lack of desire for reward or punishment, and I was questioning that premise. Yet by refusing to state my own principles publicly I am actually doing a better job of adhering to them by your own criteria.
Claire Khaw
So you have the principle of not stating your principles, is that what you are saying?
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Claire Khaw
It is disappointing to see so many attempts to derail the conversation away from the subject of the post: the failure of Conservatism.
Unprincipled Man
Why do you insist on muddying the water by using an upper case 'C' for conservatism?
Claire Khaw
But I do distinguish between Conservatism with social conservatism.
Conservatism is whatever nonsense the Conservative Party promotes from time to time, social conservatism is the disapproval and punishing of extramarital sex.
Unprincipled Man
But you're not doing that here.
Claire Khaw
What am I not doing where? The OP was exactly about making that distinction!
Unprincipled Man
And you are not making that distinction, which is precisely my point. What the Conservative party DOES may or may not be 'conservatism,' but it doesn't need a capital 'C.'
Claire Khaw
Conservatism is what is supposed to be a political ideology of the Conservative Party or people who think of themselves as Conservative intellectuals. Are we agreed on this?
Unprincipled Man
No, that's wrong. There is no 'conservative ideology' as such, and conservative instincts can be traced throughout human history, and long before a Conservative Party (formerly Tory) existed.
Claire Khaw
I am talking about Conservatism as a political ideology, but it seems we are agreed that it is kaput, which is something, I suppose.
Unprincipled Man
I've just stated that there is no such thing as 'conservative ideology.'
A better definition of 'conservatism' would be a desire or instinct to 'stick with the tried and tested.'
Claire Khaw
Conservatism was a defensive political ideology created to protect European society against the ideas of the French Revolution.
Conservatism was a defensive political ideology created to protect European society against the ideas of the French Revolution.
I have already defined social conservatism as marriage and family values ie forbidding and punishing extramarital sex and certainly treating as sex offenders parents of illegitimate offspring.
Unprincipled Man
The desire of Roman Catholics to resist the Protestant reformation was also 'conservatism.' You're right about Burke, say, and the French Revolution, but by describing such thinking as 'ideology' you are going askew.
Claire Khaw
Why would you deny that there is Catholic and Protestant ideology?
Unprincipled Man
I didn't say that.
Claire Khaw
As long as we live in a patriarchy ie a society that prioritises the preferences of married parents, we will have social conservatism, but we live in a matriarchy. You refuse to acknowledge that we live in a matriarchy or that it should be challenged or defeated, because you are not yourself a married parent. You have a vested interest in the matriarchy, shall we say.
There is a way out for people like you: penitence. I would have a list of penitents. The first on the list would have a higher status than those that come later. Their illegitimate offspring would also be conferred a higher status than the illegitimate offspring or impenitent unmarried parents.
I wonder when my genius will officially be acknowledged. That day cannot be that far off, can it really?
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