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Saturday 11 September 2021

TJump says Neanderthals were secular and theists built on the achievements of atheists


1:00  I explain Secular Koranism.
2:00  Objective morality is public morality backed by divine law. 
3:00  The law is the law. 
4:00   TJump strawmans me. 
The problem of defining morality
5:00  TJump's objective morality
6:00  My definition of morality
7:00  No people, no minds, no ideas.

7:02
matthew fors
​are they talking about secular humanism or QURANISM?

7:22
Nate The Lawyer
​Objective is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions.

8:00  TJump: "All ideas are subjective."

8:08
Nate The Lawyer
​For it to be objective it has to exist without humans

9:00  CK: "To be objective is to be impartial."

10:00  TJump: "Your intentionality is subjective."

CK:  If all concepts are subjective, is the concept of being objective also subjective?
 
TJump falsely accuses me of equivocation fallacy.

10:56
Restream Bot
​[Twitch: Fred_COH2] I saw Claire debate Mark Reed, check out his channel:

11:00  I am again accused of equivocation fallacy. 

12:00  Ontology

My killer point which was lost on TJump:

Isn't his concept of objective morality also subjective?

Why did he mention supernatural things?

13:00  Epistemology

14:00  TJump's objective morality

14:00  "All beliefs are subjective" apart from God's. 

14:43
Restream Bot
​[Twitch: Fred_COH2] Here comes the burps

15:00  Truth

16:10
Perfict1
​We have a concept of gravity, that does not mean that gravity is subjective. However, our concept of gravity would be subjective.

16:00  My definition of objective morality 

TJump claims his objective morality is a law of physics.

17:00  The law is for practical purposes, objective morality for atheists who agree with that law. The law is also objective morality for theists who agree with that law. The law of the US is objectively the law of the US if it is in force, even if some Americans do not agree with it and even if it is not in practice enforced equally or fairly. 

I am again accused of "equivocation fallacy".

18:00  TJump insists that his use of objective is correct while mine is not. 

19:00  Public morality is the law of the land, but TJump says this is subjective. 

20:00  TJump says all laws are subjective. 

21:00  Morality

22:00  TJump refuses to explain how the law of physics is relevant to morality.

23:00  If God exists, objective morality exists. TJump denies this.

24:00  If God exists, whatever He says goes. TJump contradicts me. 

So I ask again if God's view of things is just another opinion, in the opinion of TJump and he refers to Euthyphro's false dilemma.


26:00  I point out that the Abrahamic God is supposed to be perfectly moral. 

28:46
Church of Entropy
​lol hes called claire jen

29:00  What makes something good?

31:00  TJump attempts to explain his objective morality.
32:00  Map and territory

32:13
Harry Nicholas
​for the sake of progress, does it matter if morality is objective or not? what difference does it make??

34:00  If the perfectly Abrahamic God exists, His view of morality would be supreme. 

35:00  How exactly has TJump won?

TJump's says God's opinion is subjective. 

36:00  God's nature

Is TJump really 6' 2"?

37:00  If the perfectly moral Abrahamic God exists, then He would be the supreme authority on morality. 

38:00  The false dilemma of Euthyphro

Hamlet: "There is nothing good or evil, only thinking makes it so."

40:00  TJump points out God is immoral for drowning babies.

40:42
Dave
​Tom is now arguing himself now

41:00  I explain the bargain with God.

42:00  Bears killing children

43:00  TJump rejects the Noahide laws because God allowed the bears to kill the children who mocked the prophet Elisha.

42:44
X
​The Quran clearly says God saves the innocents before destroying a society

43:06
Widdershinnz
​Elijah prayed that 42 children would die bc they made fun of him being bald

43:13
ManicPandaz
​If we fundamentally can’t understand god’s reasoning, doesn’t that means god’s actions are fundamentally nonsensical?

43:18
X
​HES NOT USING THE QURAN THIS IS RIDICULOUS

44:07
Dis Noodle
​Actually this isn’t from the Quran lol

44:07
X
​@Udhehf nope he says he saves the innocent only the guilty get destroyed

44:35
X
​HES NOT USING THE QURAN

46:01
Best In Show
​Claire also approves of Sharia Law to manage women. She approves of whippings & lashes for sex outside of marriage or homosexuals. Believes unwed parents should be labeled as "Sex Offenders." Awful!

46:33
X
​@udhehf no the Quran specifically says the innocent are saved

46:51
SmackDab
​Agree or disagree, at least theists can sleep better knowing that my moral foundations lead me to conclude that murder is wrong (etc) and that I ought to do good WHETHER OR NOT ANY GODS EXIST

47:00  COMPETING MORAL SYSTEMS
47:05
you
​Muhammed's wars were defensive afaik

47:22
X
​THE QURAN ONLY TALKS ABOUT DEFENDING YOURSELF WTH HOWS AN AMERICAN ARGUING AGAINST THAT 😂

48:00  JUDGING THE EFFICACY OF COMPETING MORAL SYSTEMS
48:01
Church of Entropy
​if claire listened to @doooovid, this wouldnt be happening

49:00  Judging the quality of a moral system by its outcome

50:00  TJump likens moral systems to spears.

I point out that morality is an abstract concept while a spear is a weapon. 

52:00  Criteria on how to judge the effectiveness of a moral system
Happiness Index

53:00  JEWS
53:09
Perfict1
​Morality is not only judged by its purpose or intention, it can also be judged by its results.

53:19
Colin Sixhitter
​"And keeping it apart from others" the sole reason for religion.

53:55
Church of Entropy
​who is gonna tell him spear is still best weapon 😆

54:00
David Frisken
​So the Greek evolution of democracy method is the best because it has been around longer than Jews?

54:00  But for Judaism, there would be no Jews.
But for Jews, there would be no Jesus for Christians to worship.
Islam is about ending the absurdity, blasphemy, human sacrifice and idolatry of Christianity. 

54:30
Rise Over here305
​Hinduism doesn’t have a founder and it’s the first oldest religion

54:44
Phantorang
​so christianity is better than islam, because it's older? lol

55:00  If nobody practised Judaism, there would be no one called Jews to pass on their ethnicity to their offspring. 

55:02
you
​arab is a location?

55:10
Udhehf Hehcuw
​x what's the point in drowning them? obviously for his own enjoyment. perfectly moral beings don't enjoy torturing. that's a human concept

55:17
Rembrandt972
​Arabs are people who speak Arabic

55:19
Fat B4st4rd
​What about shamanism

55:24
Adam Albilya
​lol people don't differentiate Judaism and Jewish people again

55:29
you
​Jews and Arabs are semitic

55:29
Dave
​omg cant believe she just said that!! Jews would die out if they stopped being Jewish

55:30
David Frisken
​Jew society lasted for a very small amount of time over its on again off again time

55:37
Adam Albilya
​חופשי יכול לשלוח בפייסבוק אחי @ביזיון

55:37
Rise Over here305
​Arab is an ethnicity

55:43
Ron Mc
​This women is way out of her league here, this is painful

55:50
Colin Sixhitter
​The Greek phalanx was a meat grinder. The top weapon of its time

55:51
Best In Show
​@Capt Rabbit: Yep...plus Claire favirs Sharia Law for managing women, she endorses whippings & lashes for unwed sex & being homosex & believes unwed parents should be labeled "sex offenders!"

55:57
X
​@Udhehf the point is to teach others the outcome of taking the piss out of laws of God

55:57
Widdershinnz
​Jewish is a cultural identity

56:07
Doubting Thomas
​jews are determined by their mother

56:13
Rise Over here305
​Also Sikhism is an ethnoreligion group

56:52
David Frisken
​Australian aboriginal is a massive amount of times older. That must be the best.

57:00  A peculiarity of the Jews

58:00  I was not given the opportunity to explain how if no one at all practised Judaism, there would be no Jews to pass on their ethnicity to their children. 

58:48
Josué
​actually Judaism is an ethnoreligion, both things are true

58:56
Doubting Thomas
​I'm an atheist my mother's Jewish

59:35
Ben Noach
​tom is ignorant of halakhic law

1:00:00  The nature and purpose of religion 
1:01:00  I will be consulting my rabbinical contacts. 

1:01:01
Church of Entropy
​>ends up being an exposition of claires incredibly bigoted opinions

1:01:42
Church of Entropy
​TJump is starting to understand 0.1% of my plight

1:01:45
Doubting Thomas
​what are Israelis and what are Hebrews

1:01:53
doooovid
​team Claire

1:02:12
Church of Entropy
​@doooovid always holding to principle!

1:02:39
Ben Noach
​Rabbis would disagree with Tom tbh

1:03:00  I point out that according to God, Jews have no religious freedom. 

1:03:46
Best In Show
​@Church of Entropy: Yep, she endorses Sharia Law for women, labeling unwed parents as "Sex Offenders", endorses 100 whippings & lashes for premarital sex or being homosexual, etc. Disgusts me

1:04:00  God forbids Jews from having religious freedom but tolerates this in gentiles. 

Someone has to define what being Jewish means. 

1:05:00  TJump does not seem to understand that in order for the next generation of Jews to be produced, their parents have to be Jewish. For Jews to remain in existence, they have to practise Judaism. 

1:07:00  TJump: "Religion has nothing to do with morality."

1:05:26
Dave
​Tom dont shout at Claire this isnt allowed you commoner

1:05:26
Ben Noach
​according to the Torah Jews came into existence when Moses received the Torah

1:06:36
Travis Statham
Member (2 months)
​Doesn’t sound like she’s genetically Jewish

1:06:37
Church of Entropy
​dumbass... is that the technical term?

1:07:00  TJump: "Religion has nothing to do with morality."

I express disappointment at not having a more civilised discussion. 

1:07:18
Church of Entropy
​claire wants to be a theocratic dictator, while larping as a secular liberal @TJump it took me a while to realise that level of mind bending hypocrisy

1:07:35
Church of Entropy
​its like she tries to maximise dishonesty while not lying, its actually quite something

1:08:00  TJump shouts at me again.
1:08:10
Adam Albilya
​@David im a jewish and an Atheist.nothing new except for people who dont know jewish identity and history,looking at it from western lenses.i wont define the classification of one to self and identity

1:08:33
Phantorang
​sometimes I wonder if people like Clair label themselves with weird stuff like "Secular Koranism" to make themselves look interesting

1:08:37
surrender_monkey
​fuck civility Clair your dishonesty precludes you from that

1:09:49
Brenda
​Tom seems unusually aggressive

1:09:58
Church of Entropy
​morality comes from rules, can we even agree on that

1:10:00  Laws should be moral.
It is impossible to have a discussion about morality without discussing religion and God.
But TJump claims academics think otherwise but is unable to cite any. 

1:10:10
David Frisken
​Laws are not an indication of morality

1:10:16
Church of Entropy
​morality comes from adherence to principle

1:10:37
Brenda
​laws are ethical norms

1:10:58
Charles Insolo
​Morality is not helped by God.

1:11:00  Logic tells which moral system is best.

1:11:00
Rise Over here305
​Laws came from different religions not only Christianity

1:11:05
Colin Sixhitter
​There is one objective morality. To live long enough to breed and pass on your genes everything else is how we organised to make that chance better.

1:11:48
Rise Over here305
​The Stone Age didn’t have any morals or laws

1:13:00  Everyone in the world could be wrong about something. 
1:13:01
Rise Over here305
​The Christian God said thou shall not worship other Gods before me. Thou shall not make idols. But some Christians worship white Jesus or black Jesus

1:13:21
Woody
​but she has a nice voice.

1:13:21
Charles Insolo
​Objective = independent of thought or opinion

1:14:03
Charles Insolo
​Gotta love the accent!

1:14:08
Capt Rabbit
​claire went to private school

1:14:29
Rise Over here305
​Laws came from religions and government

1:15:00  The teleology of religion

1:15:43
Charles Insolo
​Something about an English accent that makes you sound smarter than you really are.

1:16:00  Lies
One should judge a religion by its effectiveness since it is impossible to establish the truth of it. If it is both effective and true, or at least unfalsifiable, then all the better.

Noble lie

1:16:22
Rise Over here305
​God has the right to do what God wants with his creations because God is above everybody and outside of time and space

1:17:00  The purpose of religion is to keep the group in existence and apart from others.
1:17:34
surrender_monkey
​she sounds like my mother when she's talking to the police lol

1:18:00  The status of Jews as God's Chosen People

1:20:00  TJump believes the achievement of secular political ideologies outweighs that of religions though each generation rests on the shoulders of the previous generation. 

1:21:07
Doubting Thomas
​every human being in the world is born an atheist

Religion is like spears. [sic]

1:22:00  TJump cannot seem to understand that all successful religions allow the achievements of previous generations to be built on. Failing religions are ones which use up resources rather than build on them. 

1:23:00  Past performance is no guarantee of future results. 

1:25:00  My criteria for measuring the effectiveness of religions: longevity, status, empire

1:25:54
David Frisken
​Zoroastrianism is the oldest continuous religion

1:27:00  I reject his suggestion that moral systems are like spears and guns because moral systems are ideas. Moral systems should be judged by how effective they are at keeping the group in existence and apart from others, while spears and guns are weapons which should be judged by how effective they are as weapons. 

1:30:46
zpd
​SHE'S NOT SAYING LONGEVITY WORKS FOR EVERYTHING TOM

1:30:53
444Fayte
​oh i thought she stopped

1:30:54
Dave
​Tom please dont shout at Claire you commoner

1:31:03
Sunflower
​longevity is a temporal word. Its incorrect to use it to describe physical length lmao

1:31:36
Colin Sixhitter
​How long did the ancient Egyptian society last?

1:31:42
Sunflower
​The definition if longevity is "1.) long life."long existence or service.

1:32:19
Sunflower
​the length of a spear is not longevity

1:33:10
Doubting Thomas
​what you're talking about is the origins of Technology

1:33:42
Benevolent Intelligence
​few people today even know the fact that hammers were invented originally to smash toes....

1:34:00  Bizarrely, TJump says atheism has been around for longer than religion.

Muslim have been around for centuries and Muslim theocracies exist. 

1:35:14
Sunflower
​yeah but if you replace "societies" with "countries/nations" the secular ones fail **miserably** lmao

1:35:19
Perfict1
​Claire needs to explain why the two scenarios are disanalogous. She just keeps saying that she thinks that longevity does apply when considering morality.

1:35:21
ME Game
​Kids haven't lived as long as their parents, but they will live longer than the parents. Older doesn't necessarily mean better.

1:36:25
Sunflower
​the societies that existed before religion are now completely extinct

1:36:43
Sunflower
​there is no persisting 'atheist' society from a time before religion

1:37:0  Bizarrely, TJump calls atheism a moral system.

Secularism

1:37:48
Sunflower
​all of these societies died out or converted to religious societies.... lmao

1:37:51
Colin Sixhitter
​Didn't they find a S American tribe that had no concept of god? They still had a moral system.

1:38:03
doooovid
​spears are just a tool used by man, Jews have been at the top of all societies for thousands of years

1:38:10
Mr Jones
​You needed religion in the first place

1:38:24
Travis Statham
Member (2 months)
​A missionary went there and lost his faith.

1:38:28
doooovid
​the success (and persecution) of the Jews is the greatest logical proof of the Bible

1:38:33
Sunflower
​someone point me to the atheist society that has been atheist since before religion and lasted until the present.???? Wtf? please??

1:39:00  I was speechless at being told Neanderthals were secular. 

1:39:06
doooovid
​TJump is comparing Jews to spears?

1:39:38
Sunflower
​tjumps argument is like saying 'the only reason electricity had success is because the societies without electricity that came before it built things up for it'

1:39:42
cazzac
​LOL neanderthals

1:39:45
Church of Entropy
​these metaphors @doooovid i cant take em anymore

1:39:49
Sunflower
​and thats supposed to mean electricity is somehow bad

1:39:51
Sunflower
​this argument makes no sense

1:40:00  TJump: "I don't need to prove anything [ie that atheists pre-existed theists whose achievements theists built on], I win either way."

Sunflower
​tjumps argument is like saying 'the only reason electricity had success is because the societies without electricity that came before it built things up for it'

1:40:06
cazzac
​why does tjump get so mad he has no chill

1:40:12
doooovid
​some kind of circumcision thing to keep comparing Jews to spears?

1:40:38
doooovid
​they can't just agree to disagree about the meaning of objective

1:40:40
Sunflower
​electricity obviously was massively beneficial and helpful to humanity, not at all due to the societies that preceded it

1:41:05
Udhehf Hehcuw
​Tjump needs to chill with the combative talk

1:41:20
Sunflower
​lmao why is tjump freaking out

1:41:36
doooovid
​that Jews have excelled in all societies for thousands of years is (non)-objective proof that the legal system of the Bible is objectively better than other legal systems

1:42:00  Dinosaurs
1:42:02
cazzac
​secular does mean separate from religion in the context of religiosity

1:42:34
Sunflower
​i dont think most historians would refer to pre-religious societies as "Secular"

1:42:46
doooovid
​Claire is destroying TJump, TJump just doing his rhetoric 101 class, but not actually making arguments

1:43:09
doooovid
​TJump might have some point in teaching Claire a few definitions or points of logic, but Claire is winning the larger argument,

1:43:20
Mr Jones
​Even aminals have death ceremonies

1:43:36
zpd
​Just because there were no organized religions back then doesnt' mean people didn't believe in superstitious crap

1:43:47
zpd
​Tom is playing with semantics

1:44:00  Animism
1:44:02
Jason Horner
​I think Tom is getting upset because she is becoming very dishonest.

1:44:22
cazzac
​i think Tom is being dishonest tbh

1:44:24
Kyle
​She’s absolutely dishonest

1:44:24
Udhehf Hehcuw
​not a good reason to make yourself look unhinged

1:44:26
Benevolent Intelligence
​the vast majority of this debate has been tjump trying to get Clair to acknowledge what words mean... 🤦‍♀

1:44:32
Sunflower
​a lot of the rituals and ceremonies of societies that existed before religion could probably seen as proto-religious

1:45:00  The nature and purpose of religion
1:45:00
doooovid
​press 1 if Claire is wiping the floor with TJump

1:45:35
Sunflower
​also this is the list of countries that have had nationalized atheism: the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Cuba are or were officially atheist.'

1:45:53
Perfict1
​If the people existed before religion, then their beliefs would have no religious basis.


1:46:00  I am accused of hypocrisy. 

1:46:35
zpd
​That's not what hypocrisy is btw

1:46:40
ProChinchilla
​yea

1:46:42
Colin Sixhitter
​No Claire is middle class English

1:47:00  TJump cannot think of a group of atheists in history. 

1:47:14
Phantorang
​Not "instructive" discussion? For Claire it should be very intstructive, but for the rest of us, it ahs not been lol

1:47:33
Ben Noach
​Which ones?

1:47:46
Sunflower
​the entire population of people who dont believe in religion was wiped out, and then slowly began to trickle back into the world, mostly during/after the enlightenment (there were a few before tho)

1:48:09
David H
​Anyone know what Secular Koranism mean?

1:48:37
Sunflower
​if tjump could point to a currently functioning society that predates religion and never adopted religion of any kind, that would perfectly prove his argument here

1:48:00  Golden Rule

1:49:00  Confucius was a proponent of the Golden Rule.
1:49:02
Jay G
​Where is the evidence that the Golden rule predates religion?

Rabbi Hillel and the Silver Rule

Jainism and Buddhism

1:49:36
Fubar
​“People weren’t secular before religion because the word hadn’t yet been invented” - I’m dying over here

1:50:00  TJump: "They [theists] stole from our worldview."
1:50:05
doooovid
​Finish him Claire, you got TJump on the ropes

1:50:17
Sunflower
​whats the source on 'do not lie, do not kill' etc, existing in pre-religious societies?

1:50:29
Sunflower
​Do u guys just accept that claim without asking for any proof or citation whatsoever ? lmao

1:51:00  TJump: The Ten Commandments of God was plagiarised from atheists.

1:51:00
Udhehf Hehcuw
​sunflower "do not lie" had to be invented when religion came about

1:51:18
Perfict1
​"Love your neighbor", predates historical record. "Love your enemy", predates Christianity.

1:51:25
Church of Entropy
​is TJ sure he wants to follow that line of logic to its concloosion

1:51:36
Nacasius
Member (2 months)
​Humanism is by default our oldest moral code

1:51:38
doooovid
​@Kyle - TJump just keeps on repeating his same talking points he always does, and acts like it is a philosophy 101 class, and does not actually address the points

1:52:04
PheseantNetsuke
​@TJump can you go in for the kill, this is getting hard to watch

1:52:17
doooovid
​TJump just gives some random analogy that has little to do with topic, and claims victory, that is his strategy, every time same thing. Even Claire beats TJump easy

1:52:38
Sunflower
​people behaving a certain way or not behaving a certain way does not entail an explicit "ought" like the ones that we get from religion

1:52:40
Josh Wainer
​Laws of the Hittites - 200 years The code of Hammurabi - 300 yearsThe code of Eshnunna - 500 yearsThe code of Ur-Nammu 600 yearsUrukagina’s Code 1,000 years

1:52:42
Udhehf Hehcuw
​I think Tjump is really arguing a dumb and wrong point here. this doesn't make a difference in which society is better

1:52:51
Sunflower
​im just as curious as Claire about this

1:53:06
Ben Noach
​sophistry

1:53:13
Norfolk Iceni
​Claire's moral religious condescending sanctimonious crown slips!

1:53:13
Sunflower
​@cazzac Buddhism is a religion dude

1:53:30
Udhehf Hehcuw
​sunflower that's totally wrong. just look at animals who have morals. are you saying dogs and elephants believe in God?

1:53:44
Ray Gowlett
​If you know where they come from...just tell her.

1:53:54
Sunflower
​@Udhehf Hehcuw I dont think that animals have morals.

1:54:00  TJump cannot name a single authority in academia for the proposition that theists built on the achievements atheists.    

1:54:04
Mike
​Claire destroyed Tjump in this debate

1:54:31
Udhehf Hehcuw
​sunflower I don't see any distinction between say some Apes who clearly show similar morals to us, and us

1:54:34
Norfolk Iceni
​Fkn sick of religious people taking the moral high ground, WD

1:54:35
Sunflower
​@Udhehf Hehcuw Just because something behaves in a way that resembles moral notions that we understand, does not mean they actually comprehend and intentionally 'act morally'...

1:54:49
David H
​of course athiesm pre-dates religion - it is just common sense

1:55:07
Sunflower
​@Udhehf Hehcuw So if an ape is WILLING to kill, but simply never has to, you couldnt say 'this ape clearly abides by the moral law "Do not kill" - because look, he never kills anything!'

Laws of the Hittites - 200 years The code of Hammurabi - 300 yearsThe code of Eshnunna - 500 yearsThe code of Ur-Nammu 600 yearsUrukagina’s Code 1,000 years

1:55:13
Woody
​how could religion predate atheism lol 😀

1:55:16
Udhehf Hehcuw
​sunflower we can analyze the way we act according to our morals and find similes in the animal kingdom.

1:56:00  TJump: "Neanderthals were secular."
1:56:06
Sunflower
​@Udhehf Hehcuw If an ape is willing to kill or lie or steal etc, but it never encounters a situation where those things would be beneficial, how can you ever deduce that the ape has morals?

1:56:07
Udhehf Hehcuw
​sunflower we observe apes have similar morals to us in regards to killing. they will kill in similar situations as us, like when one of their own is a danger

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