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Friday, 6 October 2017

Claire Khaw discusses Secular Koranism with a Catholic activist


The Koran guarantees freedom of belief with quran.com/2/256



 Claire Khaw:

I have read novels about Catholic guilt.  It is much of a fetish with Grahame Greene. Life is bad enough without looking for new things to get upset about.

Catholic activist:

There was nothing Catholic about Greene's guilt. It was caused by sexual infidelity

Claire Khaw:

Why not just assume the innate error of most human beings and be happy if they are not doing anything obviously bad?

Catholic activist:

I do assume that. I'm proposing a remedy.

Claire Khaw:

Just lash them 100 times and get it over with instead of not punishing them in this life but condemning them to eternal damnation.

Catholic activist:

Temporal corporal punishment can be used to avert eternal punishment if the person reforms.

Claire Khaw:

Exactly!

I asked Bishop Williamson the same questions I asked you.* He refused to answer them at all.

My good friend,
Your questions are so disparaging of Christianity that I am afraid an interview is out of the question.  Please accept this answer as final.
May God be with you,
Bishop Williamson.

Catholic activist:

I'm not surprised

Claire Khaw:

Neither am I really. I do believe those questions have undermined the very foundations of Christianity itself.

My proposition that the law limits our immorality can neither be refuted nor rebutted.

Islam acknowledges this, together with the old Chinese saying believed to be from Confucius about the people being the grass and the law being the wind, and how the grass will bend if the wind blows.

I have asked Rabbi Sacks to answer those questions but he will doubtless be wary of answering them honestly, for fear of offending the nominally Christian populace of the West.

I have tried two Muslims scholars too that I have actually met, but I imagine I will only receive a mysterious silence.

Catholic activist: 

He probably won't answer either. If you want an answer, you  need to narrow your focus and begin at the beginning, which is what I hope to explain in the article I'm writing.

Claire Khaw:

One must always start at an irrefutable proposition to prove one's point.

Catholic activist:

I agree.

Claire Khaw:

The whole point of SK is to avoid futile discussions about the existence of God.

Did you know that you are guilty of assault if you just make someone think you are going to hit them, but did not? If they flinch or dodge, they believed you were about to punch them, even if no contact was made. Even under these circumstances, the offence was made out.

Catholic Activist:

You think they are futile because you can't understand them.

I'm trying to help you understand why they are fundamental to any further discussion.

Claire Khaw:

The safest ground we can stand on is "The idea of God cannot be refuted, because the idea of God definitely exists. When atheists deny God, they are implicitly admitting that the idea of God exists."

My proposition is that THE IDEA OF an omnipotent and perfectly moral God is so powerful that He does not actually need to exist.

Catholic Activist:

He is only powerful if he exists.The idea only has value if it is based on reality, an actually existing being.

Claire Khaw:

No, because so many people already want to believe in Him.

Catholic Activist:

Now you sound like Sigmund Freud and Karl Marx.

Claire Khaw:

I probably am trying to psychoanalyse the white man! I quite like the idea of being a bourgeois version of Marx.

Catholic Activist:

If you're interested in a good study of the psychology of atheism I recommend Paul C. Vitz, Faith of the Fatherless.

Claire Khaw:

My position of agnosticism is necessary to the propagation of my message, because the Western political establishment is overwhelmingly atheist. They can only be bribed or threatened. I am addressing my message to the Western political establishment and indeed the Deep State.  I am saying that politicians' lives would be made easier and they hold a higher status if they just did the right thing.

Catholic Activist:

He also deals with female atheists, but he doesn't deal with agnostics, male or female, because agnosticism is really no position at all.

Claire Khaw:

I am not at all concerned about my immortal soul. If I succeed, I will deserve a mention in the history books. If I fail I will still have enjoyed trying.

For all you know I could believe in God, but saying that I believe in God would take away the power of my message to its intended recipients.

Catholic Activist:

I am concerned about your immortal soul. And, no, it would not detract from your message. It would give your message a coherence which it now lacks.

Claire Khaw:

Taking my the position that I have - agnosticism - means I can be thought to be any of the three and this means getting more support and interest.

Catholic Activist:

No, it just means that no one will take you seriously because you don't take yourself seriously enough to answer the most fundamental question there is.

Claire Khaw:

My message is perfectly coherent: the laws in the Koran make perfect sense, and we should use them if we want to escape from the horror of being governed by corrupt, incompetent and cowardly politicians who have taken on a very femininsed worldview.

Catholic Activist:

The Koran makes no sense without Allah.

Claire Khaw:

I thought philosophers were agreed that agnosticism is the most reasonable position to take. A Catholic [It was in fact Auberon Waugh.] told me that! All the laws in the Koran were intended to avoid predicted and predictable evils.

Catholic Activist:

He was wrong. Agnosticism is not reasonable. It is not a position. Atheism is a position, but it too is unreasonable for different reasons.

Claire Khaw:

All the evils we are now enduring could have been avoided if those Koranic laws were already in place.

Catholic Activist:

Would you like to talk about your relationship with your father?

Claire Khaw:

Only when you see God as instrumental to rational and good government will my position become clear to you. What would you like to ask me about my pa?

Catholic Activist:

I bring this up because Vitz says that all atheists felt that their fathers were weak or undependable. They learned this at an early age and then projected their feelings on to God. He makes quite a convincing case. But I'm not sure if this applies to agnostics, or, to be honest, whether you are really an agnostic. I get the sense that you really believe in God but are afraid to admit it. England is, after all, very hostile to religion. It is much more atheistic  than America.

Claire Khaw:

If you are in the middle of two territories, then your proximity to both makes you more likely to control a portion of both territories. Agnosticism puts me in that middle position.  My dear father was indulgent and fond and I enjoy a good relationship with him.

I have explained that my message is addressed primarily at the Western political establishment whom I know are overwhelmingly atheists.

I also wish it to be known that an atheist arriving at the solution of theocracy only requires the acceptance that marriage is the glue of society.

Catholic Activist:

Freud said God is an exalted father. Since you had a good relationship with your father, you have no psychological barrier to believing in God, unlike Sigmund Freud, who did. So your not an atheist. If you don't deny the existence of God, you tacitly accept it.  your agnosticism isn't really a position it's a strategy. I personally think its a strategy that is doomed to failure. As soon as you say you're an agnostic, no one takes you seriously.

Claire Khaw:

If a theocracy gives atheists a lower crime rate, lower taxes, social stability and rationally good government, why would they object to it?

If I said I believed in God, I would alienate the overwhelmingly atheist audience that I have to address. Yes, my position of agnosticism is indeed a strategy, but no one can really be sure if God absolutely exists. They merely choose to believe in Him and behave as if they believe in Him because this belief increases their sense of well-being.

I will get more attention if I say I am an atheist who proposes a theocracy too!

If there is only one Abrahamic God, whom do you think He would judge most harshly? Jews, Christians or Muslims?

Catholic Activist:

He will judge sinners harshly, not those who tried to the best of their ability to follow God as they understood Him.

Claire Khaw:

Which group would you say least follow His laws?

Catholic Activist:

The Jews.

Claire Khaw: 

Did Jews propose gay marriage?

Catholic Activist:

Yes, of course. Read Amy Dean in Tikkun magazine.

Claire Khaw:

These would be liberal Jews, wouldn't they?

Catholic Activist:

Yes.

Claire Khaw:

A good Jew is an observant Jew, and an observant Jew would be a social conservative. No social conservative could have proposed gay marriage.

Catholic Activist:

You're right. NO social conservative would have proposed gay marriage.

Claire Khaw:

A liberal Jew would not be an observant Jew and such a Jew would not observe the Sabbath. The Torah prescribes that Jews who do not observe the Sabbath be stoned to death. In other words, liberal Jews are an oxymoron and are not even supposed to exist. http://biblehub.com/exodus/31-14.htm

Christianity must have failed all over the West for gentile Western governments to have accepted gay marriage.

You can't even blame Protestants for that because Catholic Ireland too succumbed to gay marriage.

Catholic Activist:

Whatever the Torah forbids the Talmud permits.

Claire Khaw:

If sodomy is explicitly forbidden then all the more gay marriage. I am sure even the Talmud does not permit gay marriage. These Jews who pushed this can have relied on no religious authority at all.

Catholic Activist:

You don't understand how the Talmud works. Heinrich Graetz blamed it for the moral corruption of the Jews who study it, and he was the father of Jewish historiography. Read The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit.
https://archive.org/stream/TheJewishRevolutionarySpiritAndItsImpactOnWorldHistoryselections_857/jonesRevJujuSelectionsEtc._djvu.txt

Claire Khaw:

I have ordered Penguin Talmud. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Talmud-Selection-Penguin-Classics/dp/014144178X
The Jew is under no duty to look after the gentile if the gentile already has his own religion.

Catholic Activist:

Don't waste your time or money reading the Talmud.  You can consult a copy at the library if you must. It was not written for the goyim.

Claire Khaw:

I need a copy to hand, surely, if I am to investigate the subject. I do not find the Koran at all objectionable. Virtually all that is objectionable about Islam comes from the Hadith. I assume that the Talmud is the Jewish form of the Hadith.  Both are called Commentaries and they are the work of humans. Muslims are supposed to believe that the Koran is the literal transcribed Word of God in Arabic, and this must be the primary source of God. Perversely, they prefer a secondary source.

Catholic Activist:

Such an ethic is insufficient, since the Natural Law cannot acquire a morally binding force, obligatory in conscience—at least in the sense of our modern conception of “Duty”—unless it has a metaphysical basis and is grounded in a transcendental Source, God, Whose will for man is expressed in the Natural Law, but although insufficient, it enshrines as most important and valuable truth which is essential to the development of a rational moral philosophy.

Claire Khaw:

What ethic are you referring to?

Catholic Activist: 

Socrates'

Claire Khaw:

What was this ethic of Socrates?

Catholic Activist:

Knowledge and virtue are identicial

Claire Khaw:

He was just saying that if we had complete knowledge we would just do the decent thing. Well, we don't.

Morality is a system of rules and we have three to choose from if we want to worship the most powerful God conceivable.

If we accept that Christianity has failed, then this logically means we only have two others to choose from. Judaism is for Jews only and most people aren't up to high-maintenance practices requiring a wife willing to do the cooking and entertaining for all the endless Jewish festivals they have.

The categorical imperative is really the moral imperative, and the moral imperative must be to accept the truth and be guided by reason while adhering to a system of morality that  we know works, for the good of the group.

At the very least, the group must be able to renew itself when its members become old and die and this means the rearing of legitimate children and the parenting and education of them.  This can only be done within the family. A family can only mean offspring with both their biological parents and the only moral system that supports marriage is patriarchy.

If we want nationalism we must have patriarchy. If we want patriarchy we must have laws that support marriage and the family. If we want laws that support marriage and family values we must have theocracy. Just as all roads lead to Rome, all morality comes from a being and source that must have at least a characteristic superior to that of mortal man eg immortality, greater wisdom.

To be human requires us to be more than animals, and what distinguishes us from non-human animals must be our capacity for abstract thought so that we can conceive of such ideas as morality, eternity, wisdom, omniscience, and then articulate their principles, adhere to them and defend them when we perceive that they are being undermined.

Even if we had no moral principles, we must at least accept the truth and be guided by reason if only for selfish reasons eg to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

Islam means more than peace, it also means submission. If we submit to its moral system and follow it properly, we get peace, we are promised.

If we care for posterity or our descendants, we must know that future generations will need some form of moral system to protect their society. Since the one we inherited is now irreparably broken, we must find a replacement. We have to do it whether we like it or not because it is our duty and it happened on our watch.

I fear too many people who even now know things are not as they should be are pretending that they didn't notice anything wrong.

Religion is just like a boiler. When it is irreparably broken we must replace it, or we will get no central heating or hot water this winter, and our descendants will curse us for pretending not to notice that it was no longer working.

Just as we cannot be sentimental about a broken boiler that worked for our ancestors but now no longer works, we cannot be sentimental about our religion and insist on keeping it even though it no longer works and produces no heat, though its lights are still on and every now and then it makes a sound.

https://www.quran.com/5/104

What do you think of my modest proposal? My modest proposal for the alt-right and a suggestion for Steve Bannon  thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/my-elegant-proposal-for-alt-right.html

Catholic Activist:

Christianity has not failed.

Catholic Activist:

In the meantime, what do you think of this article? http://mohabatnews.com/en/?p=3660

Claire Khaw:

Clearly, Iranian youth are seduced by the sexual liberation Christianity appears to offer.

Catholic Activist:

Christianity offers the opposite of sexual liberation.

Claire Khaw:

But these young Iranians don't know that, do they? They look at the West and assume that the West practice Christianity. Therefore they choose Christianity because they like the sexual liberation that they see portrayed in Hollywood in what they think is the Christian West.

They see Christians everywhere enjoying sexual liberation and assume that this sexual liberation is part and parcel of Christianity, in just the way Westerners assume that Islam is stoning women to death and hanging sodomites from cranes, when in fact the Koran is silent on stoning and does not specify the death penalty for sodomy.

Catholic Activist:

If they are "enjoying sexual liberation," they are ipso facto not acting as Christians.

Claire Khaw:

Perhaps they see it as a way of annoying their parents. Maybe goading the government into persecuting them will give their claim for asylum more validity when they finally get here.

Khomeini wanted a theocracy. Did he really mention Plato?

Catholic Activist:

Yes

Claire Khaw:

I really don't see why Plato is relevant. Muhammad already had his Islamic State.  Plato did not believe in God and was a pagan.

Catholic Activist:

I know you don't see why it's relevant. You're a fundamentalist.

Claire Khaw:

In what way am I a fundamentalist?

Catholic Activist:

You believe all knowledge comes from the Koran.

Claire Khaw:

Not really. I am saying Koranic principles are easier to follow than Blibical principles. If you read the Koran all the way through, you would know what I mean. I assume you have read the Bible in its entirety?

 Catholic Activist:

No, I haven't. It's not that kind of book.

Claire Khaw:

The Koran is much shorter, of course, and I have read it in several translations and didn't find it hard going at all. Yesterday the Talmud that I ordered arrived.

Catholic Activist:

Good luck reading the Talmud.

Claire Khaw:

It seems a bit hard going and I have not finished the introduction!

Catholic Activist:

Don't say I didn't warn you. The Talmud is not for the goyim.

Claire Khaw:

It was banned by the Catholic Church for all the rude things it said about Christ and his mum, speculating that he was probably the son of a Roman soldier ....

Is that the worst of it? There is something about being boiled in semen too, but I knew that before I ordered the book.

Catholic Activist:

Banned is not the right word. It would be more accurate to say that it was burned by the Catholic Church.

No, he's allegedly being boiled in excrement.

Claire Khaw:

They are basically notes taken by rabbinical scholars.

Catholic Activist:

The Talmud was created to keep Jews from Christ.

Catholic Activist:

It is all a bit like Christians saying Muhammad was a paedo.

Catholic Activist:

I have to go to the library.

Claire Khaw:

Have a productive afternoon there then.

Catholic Activist:

Thank you.

Claire Khaw:

But I urge you to read the Koran and recommend the N J Dawood Penguin translation. I like to think you will be pleasantly surprised. There is even an English nursery rhyme that has echoes of the Koran, and some of the imagery is undeniably majestic.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=31&verse=27

http://www.nursery-rhymes.co/index.php/home/lyrics/if-all-the-world-were

I do understand the reasons why you are avoiding reading it though!

Plato's Philosopher King just meant the wisest man should lead the country, but how are we to measure wisdom?  I have a few ideas drawing on Catholic traditions ...

Do you believe I am Muslim? I should have picked you up on it yesterday, but I wanted to check. You seemed to be accusing me of being a Muslim Fundamentalist. I am still an agnostic and no Muslim would regard me as Muslim.

Catholic Activist:

You could have fooled me.

Claire Khaw:

You don't recall me telling you that I am agnostic? I am sure I have said this several times to you in the course of our discussions.

Catholic Activist:

Yes, of course. I'm trying to make sense out of your contradictions.

Claire Khaw:

How have I contradicted myself? I have explained so many times that God does not have to actually exist to be useful to Man!

Catholic Activist:

Secular Koranism is a contradiction. We're going around in circles now. I thought the intro would help us move forward. I can't help you resolve your contradictions if you insist on maintaining them.

Claire Khaw:

I am telling you why there is no contradiction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie

Catholic Activist:

That means we have reached an impasse and can't continue.

Claire Khaw:

I am sure I have mentioned the Noble Lie to you before, have I not? Let me check.

Catholic Activist:

I'm familiar with the term. I'm not interested in lies, noble or otherwise.

Claire Khaw:

The best we can do is tell people that belief in God has utility.

Catholic Activist:

No, that's not the best we can do.

Claire Khaw:

You are wasting time and energy by insisting that people accept that God actually exists. There is no need.

Descartes could not prove what you are trying to prove. You do know that his "I think therefore I am" proposition was about proving the existence of God from reason alone, don't you?

Catholic Activist:

That's his problem, not mine. We have to proceed from the existence of God. Anything else is a waste of time at this point.

Claire Khaw:

You are the one who is being fundamentalist, if I may say so.

Catholic Activist:

No, I'm being rational.

Claire Khaw:

Politics is about compromise and I am more interested in politics than proving God's existence. It is enough that the idea of God exists. It is not rational to attempt to the impossible. Generations of philosophers on both sides of the argument have agreed that it is impossible to prove God's existence or absence.

Catholic Activist:

The English have tried to do foundationless politics for 500 years now, and the chickens are coming home to roost. England may become a Muslim country because of the Protestant Reformation. You can choose Islam if you want, but I'm proposing another, more rational alternative, one that held sway in England for 900 years before the Reformation.

Claire Khaw:

It was inevitable that Catholicism would lose its power as history advanced. Why would any leader of a nation listen to someone from another nation? The logic of nationalism would prevent this.

Catholic Activist:

I really don't care about what generations of philosophers held. The proof is valid. If you can't see that, I can try to help you see it. But that doesn't mean that I can succeed.

Claire Khaw:

It would be different if the Pope had armies, but he no longer does. The Lateran Treaty - was that political or religious? You cannot separate the two! You have incomplete information if you refuse to read the Koran. You equate logos with acceptance of the Trinity and you know this proposition would be rejected outside Christianity.

By claiming you understand logos, you are also claiming that you know the Mystery of the Trinity, which I happen to know only God is supposed to know.

In any case, you cannot remain a Christian once you have understood the nature and purpose of the Trinity.

Of course, the Blasphemy Act 1697 was passed to deal with the likes of me.

Once the Doctrine of the Trinity Act was passed, then began the slow death of Anglicanism.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_the_Trinity_Act_1813

Catholic Activist:

Dear Claire, You have reduced me to silence.

Claire Khaw:

Dear Catholic Activist, I shall leave you alone to reflect on what you are trying to do. There is no need for you to attempt the impossible and there is a simpler way and easier way. I hope you will at least consider what I am trying to tell you and ask me any difficult questions that may occur to you.

Catholic Activist:

Thank you.

Claire Khaw:

Would you call Thomas Hobbes Catholic?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9l1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018csyq

It seems from the 23rd minute that Hobbes on his deathbed said he liked the religion of the Church of England best of all other.

Have you heard of Leo Strauss?

Catholic Activist:

Yes, he taught neocons like Paul Wolfowitz at the University of Chicago.

    No bloody or unbloody change of society can eradicate the evil in man: as long as there will be men, there will be malice, envy and hatred, and hence there cannot be a society which does not have to employ coercive restraint.
        The City and Man, p. 5 (1964)

He also said:

"Liberal relativism has its roots in the natural right tradition of tolerance or in the notion that everyone has a natural right to the pursuit of happiness as he understands happiness; but in itself it is a seminary of intolerance."

Who said this?

"The balance of our population, our human stock is threatened. A recent article in Poverty, published by the Child Poverty Action Group, showed that a high and rising proportion of children are being born to mothers least fitted to bring children into the world and bring them up. They are born to mother who were first pregnant in adolescence in social classes 4 and 5. Many of these girls are unmarried, many are deserted or divorced or soon will be. Some are of low intelligence, most of low educational attainment. They are unlikely to be able to give children the stable emotional background, the consistent combination of love and firmness which are more important than riches. They are producing problem children, the future unmarried mothers, delinquents, denizens of our borstals, sub-normal educational establishments, prisons, hostels for drifters. Yet these mothers, the under-twenties in many cases, single parents, from classes 4 and 5, are now producing a third of all births. A high proportion of these births are a tragedy for the mother, the child and for us.

Yet what shall we do? If we do nothing, the nation moves towards degeneration, however much resources we pour into preventative work and the over-burdened educational system. It is all the more serious when we think of the loss of people with talent and initiative through emigration as our semi-socialism deprives them of adequate opportunities, rewards and satisfactions.

Yet proposals to extend birth-control facilities to these classes of people, particularly the young unmarried girls, the potential young unmarried mothers, evokes entirely understandable moral opposition. Is it not condoning immorality? I suppose it is. But which is the lesser evil, until we are able to remoralise whole groups and classes of people, undoing the harm done when already weak restraints on strong instincts are further weakened by permissiveness in television, in films, on bookstalls?"

Catholic Activist:

Margaret Sanger

Claire Khaw: 

Nope.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/wintour-and-watt/2010/nov/25/conservatives-davidcameron
Joseph was a Jew.
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/06/blue-labour-john-era-goodman
Another Jew advocating social conservatism for the goyim was Lord Glasman of Blue Labour. Career also destroyed.

In the West, even the privileged Jew is below the feminazi.

Alan Dershowitz has recently discovered this.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/alan-dershowitz-intersectionality-is-a-code-word-for-anti-semitism/article/2618871

Strauss doesn't sound like a bad guy to me.

'Strauss taught that liberalism in its modern form contained within it an intrinsic tendency towards extreme relativism, which in turn led to two types of nihilism:[31]

The first was a "brutal" nihilism, expressed in Nazi and Marxist regimes. In On Tyranny, he wrote that these ideologies, both descendants of Enlightenment thought, tried to destroy all traditions, history, ethics, and moral standards and replace them by force under which nature and mankind are subjugated and conquered.[32] The second type—the "gentle" nihilism expressed in Western liberal democracies—was a kind of value-free aimlessness and a hedonistic "permissive egalitarianism", which he saw as permeating the fabric of contemporary American society.[33][34]

In the belief that 20th century relativism, scientism, historicism, and nihilism were all implicated in the deterioration of modern society and philosophy, Strauss sought to uncover the philosophical pathways that had led to this situation. The resultant study led him to advocate a tentative return to classical political philosophy as a starting point for judging political action.'

Catholic Activist:

This is from Wikipedia.

Catholic Activist:

No, you would like Strauss. He condoned lying. He was a consequentialist. He is the father of neoconservatism.

Claire Khaw:

"along with many in the pre-World War II German Right, he feared people trying to force a world state to come into being in the future, thinking that it would inevitably become a tyranny."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss#Strauss.27s_Interpretation_of_Plato.27s_Republic

Not a neoliberal then.

Catholic Activist:

No, a neoconservative.

Claire Khaw:

I haven't got to that bit yet.

'While Strauss maintained a sympathetic interest in Zionism, he later came to refer to Zionism as "problematic" and became disillusioned with some of its aims.'

Like me, Strauss was agnostic.

Catholic Activist:

Neoconservatism wrecked the Catholic conservative movement. The Buchanan candidacy in 1992 caused the break up of conservatism into two parts. The split has never healed. Trump was the return of the Buchanan advocacy of America First. The Catholics got swept away and have remained dispirited and disunited to this day. They can't articulate their own position on anything now.

Claire Khaw:

Is there a link for this? This is all new to me.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/59/Leo_Strauss_Neoconservative

What were these two parts that Conservatism was split into by the Buchanan candidacy in 1992?

Catholic Activist:

The neoconservatives and the paleoconservatives. Richard John Neuhaus defected from the paleocons under Tom Fleming at Chronicles and the Rockford Institute and founded First Things with money provided by NOrman Podhoretz and Midge Dector. He then converted to Catholicism and spent the rest of his life turning Catholics into neocons.

Claire Khaw:

Neoconservatism = US imperialism

Nothing wrong with that in principle if you are an American.

Catholic Activist:

The first victims of American Imperialism are Americans like me.

Claire Khaw:

The problem with American imperialism is that it is not honest. If it were honest, there would now be a 51st, 52nd, 53rd etc state.

You do it behind the scenes with puppet leaders claiming you are helping these benighted people while allowing immigration into your country and upsetting the ordinary people.

Claire Khaw:

But the only way to do it properly is to have enough fighting men to take over for example Ireland, then Britain then France etc etc.

You won't do it honestly so you do it under a cover of lies. These lies are seen through by the American people who feel no rise in their living standards and certainly no rise in their status in their own country vis a vis immigrants whom they are no longer allowed to complain about in their own country without being accused of being Nazis. The only thing they can point to that they get more of is sex and this can only be done by corrupting first the morals of women and eventually those of the men. This has now happened.

Even evil serial killers must rely on truth and logic to seek their sadistic pleasures and avoid capture. The more lies we tell, the more tangled the web until nobody believes us any more. When we tell lies we also confuse ourselves about which lies we have told to whom and what we are supposed to believe ourselves. This way madness lies.

Neonconservatism is imperialism operating on the principles of margin trading, and the margin calls are getting more and more frequent now.

Islam would stop this nonsense of course.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-08-17/u-a-e-margin-trade-crackdown-fans-shariah-push-islamic-finance

Trading on margin encourages gambling, of course.  As you can see from the link above, Muslims themselves are not above diluting their own religious principles.

While Strauss clearly had nothing against imperialism per se, he would have a problem with how it is operating at the moment - by incompetents. Imperialism doesn't mean always starting fights and insulting everyone around you, because in the end you will exhaust yourself and your enemies will become so numerous and angry they will gang together even if they did not before just to get rid of you.

You are like the householder who complains that the wind has blown down your house without asking yourself whether your home could have been more structurally sound bearing in mind the technology and materials available to you.

Again we return to religion and its purpose of maintaining morality. Morality was never about saving souls but about saving us from ourselves in this life in order to protect our group solidarity, by maintaining morality.

There can be no group solidarity now in a nation where women are in charge of men governed by caprice and irrationality , since these women do not know their own minds and hate their own countrymen. It will be every man for himself, not hanging together and hanging separately.

Claire Khaw:

Logos is really Secular Koranism, isn't it?  ;-)
http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/secular-koranism.html

Catholic Activist: 

No, not that simple.

Claire Khaw:

Logos is simply choosing theocracy even if one is an agnostic because the evils God's laws are meant to discourage and prevent are readily comprehensible and clearly undeniable bearing in mind what we know about human nature.

Catholic Activist:

Logos involves acceptance of the existence of God.

Claire Khaw:

I acknowledge the existence of the concept of God. Even atheists do.

Catholic Activist:

I mean the actual existence of a Being called God who created the universe.

Claire Khaw:

I have explained that it is not necessary to do so without proving the undeniable usefulness of God!

Catholic Activist:

The is the useful lie theory. It goes nowhere.

 Claire Khaw:

You are too impatient and demanding of your audience. You must meet them halfway. Give them irrefutable propositions and they will have to reluctantly agree. Demand that they believe what you believe and they will turn away.

The existence of God is not a lie, merely unprovable. Admit your limitations.

Catholic Activist:

I gave you an irrefutable propostion in the new atheism article. I proved the existence of God.

Claire Khaw:

You know no one has, not even the genius Descartes. Philosophers have agreed to disagree over this. The most intellectually respectable position to take is agnosticism.

Also, you are extremist. I have already proven that there is no need to prove God's existence to successfully argue for a theocracy.

Catholic Activist:

Your mind has been poisoned by Whig history. Don't tell me what other people say. Point out the error in my argument. Or admit that it's true.

Claire Khaw:

I barely understand your argument because it is so convoluted. That was why it was so hard to read.

Catholic Activist:

It is not convoluted. It is crystal clear.

Claire Khaw:

Descartes failed and I linked you to that article explaining his reasoning that failed to convince anyone.You have not persuaded any atheist nor will you ever. Even the Koran admits that it is impossible to prove the existence of God!

Catholic Activist:

Your mind has been poisoned by Whig history. Don't tell me what other people say. Point out the error in my argument. Or admit that it's true.

Claire Khaw:

Haha! Even God says it is impossible to prove His own existence. All you did was restate the Prime Mover First Cause Argument.

Catholic Activist:

Because it is true.

Claire Khaw:

So God was the Big Bang? Well it banged and here we are. That doesn't prove the existence of God, it just means that we and the universe exist.

Catholic Activist:

No, God created the universe out of nothing.

Claire Khaw:

Or God could have created us and then left the room, forever. You say it is God, others beg to differ.

Catholic Activist:

Whatever people call it, it had to be God. Only God can create out of nothing.

Claire Khaw:

Well, something brought us into being, but that doesn't mean God still lives, because He could be like a salmon that spawned and then died.

Catholic Activist:

I've already answered this objection.

Claire Khaw:

I have forgotten it.

Catholic Activist:

God is the necessary being. He cannot die.

Claire Khaw:

What I will acknowledge is that the Abrahamic God is the most powerful entity conceivable.  Nothing is more powerful than this idea of God.

Catholic Activist:

God is God. What differs is our understanding of him.

Claire Khaw:

Not only is He omnipotent, He is also morally perfect. Not only is He those things, He is said to care about us individually and knows our hearts and minds.

We must let people think what they want about Him while inviting them to agree about the nature and purpose of God's laws.

Catholic Activist:

Yes, He is, but this is all later understanding derived from Christian influence.

Claire Khaw:

Why do you insist on riding in your coach and horses when we now have the internal combustion engine? Please just get in the car!

Catholic Activist:

Why do you always personalize the discussion? This is not about me.

Claire Khaw:

Yes, it is because you won't see reason and I know why you won't. You won't give up the religion of your ancestors.

If you were even seen to be discussing my ideas if only to mock them, you would incur the wrath of Catholics anxious to suppress Secular Koranism, which is not threat to Catholics at all, because it is not about closing down anyone's place of worship but about enabling Jews and Christians to be better Jews and Christians!

Catholic Activist: 

As I said, this isn't about me.

Claire Khaw:

Jews, Christians, Muslims and sensible people who want to have legitimate children and bring them up properly wouldn't have to struggle against the culture under Secular Koranism.

You are a cradle Catholic, and I know you are not going to give it up because I have won the argument!

You are going to drag your feet and make all sorts of excuses even as you acknowledge that the law must be changed to support the family.

You could mock Secular Koranism in your book, I don't care.I am so confident of it I invite you to mock it and tear it apart, pull out its entrails and spread them about.

Catholic Activist:

Calm down, Claire. This isn't about you either. It's about God.

Claire Khaw:

No, it is about having a solution that you know is the obvious solution but which you know will be ignored because people are now beyond reason.

Michael Voris is so dishonest in his criticism of Islam too. Did you listen to it? It mad absolutely no sense at all.

https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vortex-islam-is-not-a-religion

And why does he never mention the Orthodox Church?

Or Presbyterianism?

Catholic Activist:

I'm not defending Michael Voris.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Man-Behind-Curtain-Michael-Homosexual-ebook/dp/B01IAIIOE2

Claire Khaw:

I have been banned from posting on the Church Militant website. I have also been banned by various quasi Catholic organisations in the UK.

Catholic Activist:

I'm not surprised. And I am not going to defend what they do.

Claire Khaw: 

Voris very eloquently criticise corrupt clergy with undeniable eloquence and energy when he is not being intellectually dishonest.

Catholic Activist:

I can't win.

Claire Khaw:

You won't deconstruct Secular Koranism? I invite you to do so.

https://quran.com/6/111 is the verse that says even God Himself won't be able to prove His own existence to Unbelievers. You really should read it, you know!

https://quran.com/5/14
And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.
https://quran.com/5/17

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

https://quran.com/5/41

O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews.
[They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

This verse must refer to the Talmud.

Claire Khaw:

Does logos only mean Christianity?

Catholic Activist:

No, the idea of Logos came into being centuries before Christianity.

Claire Khaw:

That would be Judaism.  I am surprised you of all people would be promoting this!

Catholic Activist:

No, it was Anaxagoras. He had not idea of who the Hebrews were or what they believed.

Claire Khaw:

Ah, you are still trying to prove that God exists by a series of arguments alone, when you know full well that people now are strangers to truth and logic.

Catholic Activist:

We are creatures of logos, not strangers to it. Logos is the essence of what we are. The fact that we are having this discussion is proof of what I just said.

Claire Khaw:

The sheeple do not care about logos.

The matriarchy does not care about logos.

Those who aspire to the patriarchy are too afraid to say that they do.

Catholic Activist:

Anyone who says I do not believe in Logos contradicts himself by his very statement.

Claire Khaw:

You know as well as I do that only a one party theocracy would get the patriarchy back yet again, yet you busy yourself  trying to prove the impossible - what even God Himself has declared to be impossible and which He Himself declines to do, which is to prove His own existence to the determinedly sceptical.

What we think is not important, because no one listens to us, as you well know.

The best we can do is sell our ideas to someone in a position of power who will pick it up and run with it.

That was what the prophets of old did.

Catholic Activist:

God will not violate the free will he gave us by forcing us to believe in Him. The will is free. But that doesn't change anything about God's existence or our duties to Him. Good luck selling your ideas.

Claire Khaw:

Knowing of the wisdom of God's laws, it is our duty to obey them, and when we see that they are broken and ignored, we remind and warn.

Doubtless you wish me the same "good luck" that you have been "enjoying".

Catholic Activist:

It's a hard sell. Ask Socrates.

Claire Khaw:

Yes, I know what happened to Socrates and Christ.

Catholic Activist:

Of course, I still believe that. How could I not?

Claire Khaw:

What do you believe?

Catholic Activist:

I believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only son, who was conceived. . . . etc. It's called the Apostles' Creed.

Claire Khaw:

You will deny that Christianity has failed to your dying day, I suppose. Christianity has failed the West, but as long as you die a Catholic, that will have to do.  It's all about you.

Catholic Activist:

This isn't about me.

Claire Khaw:

It's not even about posterity or your country or your descendants. I don't see how you can deny that the rule of law would maintain morality better than corrupt Catholic clergy.

This is all occupational therapy for you and you are being avoidant. You will never acknowledge that Christianity has failed the West as long as there is breath in you because you intend to die a Catholic.  It is as simple as that.

It is all about you.

But let me tell you this: you will be remembered better and longer if you acknowledge the truth: the truth that it is the law that limits our immorality.

Catholic Activist:

As I said, this isn't about me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Claire Khaw:

It doesn't even matter whether God exists, only that patriarchy is clearly a better way of maintaining our civilisation than our degenerate and increasingly demented matriarchy.

There will be more men running amuck and shooting people, more acts of terrorism, more repression, and more chaos and disorder.

Admitting the truth and pointing to the right way would help shorten this time for your children and your grandchildren, but you prefer to die a Catholic.

When you prove your logos, you will be no further than proving the position of Judaism and Islam anyway. I have no idea why you are wasting your time and energy doing this!

You do understand that supporting Secular Koranism would not mean that you must stop being Catholic, don't you?

You don't have to be Muslim to support Secular Koranism. I am not Muslim.

An atheist, agnostic, Jew, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist etc could support Secular Koranism if they think its rules are fair enough and it guarantees freedom of belief with quran.com/2/256.

Secular Koranism envisages that its citizens would not all be Muslim and has no intention of closing down churches, synagogues or temples. Everything would carry on as before in terms of religious worship for Catholics and non-Catholics. Western countries that would most feel the disruption would be countries with an established church ie the Protestant nations you denounce.

Why would any non-Muslim support Secular Koranism? They would if they are aware that being governed by the ideology of feminism and sexual liberation would make our government increasingly susceptible to manipulation by foreign interests because this operating ideology makes us and our politicians stupid, irrational and corrupt.

It is not even about our allegedly immortal souls but the continued existence of Anglicanism that Anglicanism is really about. It was Anglicanism that weakened first. It is impossible for any religious principles to survive in a sea of sewage that is Western culture. The only way is to cleanse our surroundings and that can only be done by changing the law.

I don't know if you know this, but the Book of Common Prayer even now says bless the Catholic Church.

Catholic Activist:

Yes, because it was the source of their wealth after they stole the property of the Catholic Church.

Claire Khaw:

You think so? I thought it was because Henry was reluctant to change anything about the service at all including the wording of the prayers in case it upset the peasants.

He figured that the peasants wouldn't care who really was the head of the church as long as they could have their rituals in exactly the way they used to have it.

Catholic Activist:

That was all rationalization for the theft of Church property. Read William Cobbett, The Reformation in England and Ireland.

Claire Khaw:

Well, the Frenchies did that too, with their Assignats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assignat

I am curious as to why you think Bishop Williamson should come back to the church when the church is still moving away from Catholic teaching at the rate of knots.

This is all about receiving extreme unction at the end, isn't it? You would like that, and you assume he must too, and that is why you think he should come back. That final ritual to you and others is more important than all the moral principles Catholic teaching represents. If you don't receive it at the end, you think you won't make it to heaven.

Is it still called extreme unction? My word, I have seen it in enough films to actually want it for myself, I must say, but at heart I am agnostic, and to sell Secular Koranism, I must avoid all trappings of favouring one religion over another.

If you are excommunicated, does that mean you won't be entitled to the last rites?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3M.HTM

Catholic Activist:

As I said, this isn't about me.
Yes, as I understand it, you would need to be re-admitted to receive the last rites.

You commitment to an ideology that can't work is preventing you from embracing a religion that offers salvation.

Claire Khaw:

I am committed to this principle: law should conform to morality.

Why would you even deny this?

"The people are the grass, the law is the wind. When the wind blows, the grass will bend." This is an old Chinese saying. Some people think Confucius said it.

12:19  http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/ps/cup/confucius_govt.pdf

All you are trying to do is saying "We, Catholics, were right all along."

Catholic Activist:

I'm not denying that law should conform to morality. The principle is known as the natural law. That's what I'm trying to promote.  I just don't see how you can achieve that end with the vehicle (SK) you're proposing.

If you're asking me if the Catholic Church is infallible when it comes to faith and morals, the answer is yes.

Claire Khaw:

Secular Koranism does not require belief in the Trinity or a demonstrably failing or failed religion , it is also new.

Secular Koranism is not a threat to Catholicism. It is not a threat to any religion at all.

In an environment of Secular Catholicism, Jews will be better Jews, Christians better Christians and Muslims better be Muslims.

Catholic Activist:

Change SK to Logos and the Natural Law and we've got a chance for success. That's the point of the book that I'm writing. Belief in God is not an option. It is mandatory. It is irrational to deny the existence of God. Therefore, you have to abandon your agnosticism if you want to be taken seriously.

Claire Khaw:

You don't need to prove God exists. You are just obsessed with doing it.

You just want everything to be your way or it's the highway for everyone else.

Catholic Activist:

This isn't about me.

Claire Khaw:

God Himself has said He can't do it to the determined atheist. Even He knows His own limits.  https://quran.com/6/111

Catholic Activist:

Belief in the existence of God is mandatory. We can't proceed unless you accept the existence of God. Logos is the soul of the universe because God is Logos and creation mirrors his being.

Claire Khaw:

You are suffering from tunnel vision. The culture won't accept it from you. You are a marginalised Catholic. Why would anyone listen to anything you say in a time when Christians get so little respect by their own governments?

Catholic Activist:

Because what I say is the truth, and the truth will prevail because it is great. As I said, this isn't about me.

Claire Khaw:

I am not exactly lying.

What I offer is novel, logical, based on undisputed fact and impregnably logical.

You could help.

Catholic Activist:

I'm trying to help. You're the one who won't budge. If you insist on hold an irrational position like the Koran without God, there's nothing I can do to help. The will is free.

Claire Khaw:

You can help by discussing Secular Koranism.

You can use it to prove the truth and logic of your position, and you can mock it. I really don't care.

Not like I am asking much or demanding that you agree with me.

We don't need to encroach on each other's territory. The solution I propose is political. The solution as you see it is to convert people to Catholicism. While you are on an evangelical mission, I am offering a practical political solution that does not require anyone else to believe in God. You are promoting your religion, and your religion would be in a friendlier environment in a country governed by the principles I propose. Our objectives could be said to be complementary.

Catholic Activist:

I am demanding that you agree with the proposition that the existence of God can be known by reason. Faith is not necessary. This is a rational proposition; to deny it is irrational. So I am demanding that you agree with me, even if you're not demanding that I agree with you.

Claire Khaw: 

You are demanding that I believe in God? What would be the purpose of this?

Catholic Activist:

Further communication.Otherwise we go around in circles and never reach any conclusions. I don't want to waste your time.

Claire Khaw:

How would it help anyone even if I became Catholic?

Catholic Activist:

It would help you. And that would mean that you could be more helpful to other people. You would be more effective in what you are trying to do because you would have a more intimate contact with Logos.

I would just be another Catholic.

Catholic Activist:

That's impossible. There is only one you.

Claire Khaw:

Being Catholic has not helped you get what you want.

The status of Catholics in the West is low.

Catholic Activist:

How do you know that? Are you only interested in status?

Claire Khaw:

It is slightly higher in South America, perhaps. I am interested only in selling Secular Koranism. Converting to any religion would not help me sell it.

Catholic Activist:

That's what I feared.

Catholic Activist:

Well, good luck.

Claire Khaw:

 Religion is only a means to an end. It is only political ideology. It is important that we choose the right one though. You are not seeing the wood for the trees. Why would I choose a now discredited religion with a clergy that even Catholics know to be corrupt and supine?

Catholic Activist:

Because Jesus Christ is the Logos Incarnate

Claire Khaw:

You have sedevacantists and anti-Popes popping up everywhere. There is a reason for this. I am only interested in practical solutions capable of being implemented in this life.

Catholic Activist:

You're looking for love in all the wrong places.

Claire Khaw:

No, he isn't. Stop clutching at straws. You can do better than this. I am not looking for love, only platforms and rational people capable of understanding what I am trying to do and who know what the problems are and what must be done. You are just retreating into your own world that is becoming ever smaller because Christianity has failed the West. It has failed to protect you from encroaching feminism. You only think Jews are getting more powerful. In fact, the Post-Christian is getting weaker and that is why the Jew seems to become more powerful relative to him. The West is failing because it has desecrated marriage and has been doing so for decades.

Catholic Activist:

At this point, you need to throw yourself on your funeral pyre or pick up a sword and hope the riders of Rohan arrive in time.

Claire Khaw:

All these Tolkien references are wasted on me. What do you hope to do? You only want to die a Catholic while having grandiose ambitions of proving God's existence. My ambitions are rather more limited. I prefer truth and reason and where they lead me, I shall go. I will not tell myself lies so I can stay exactly where I am. When circumstances change, I adopt a different hopefully more effective strategy.

Your strategy incorporates the Deadly Sin of Pride.

When truth and logic fail, we are only left with bribes and threats.

How can Christians impress anyone now when they are complaining of being exploited by Jews and invaded by Muslims? Why would any rational person now become Christian?

I thought of you today and was reminded of the Ultramontanes.

The truth is not about proving your enemies wrong, it is just what it is. The truth cannot serve you if you think it is meant to serve you and assume it is always against your enemies. It really is just what it is.

The Ultramontanes who have forgotten nothing and learned nothing ....

They have learned nothing, and forgotten nothing. (and variations)

    Recognized since the 19th century as a borrowing, possibly used by Talleyrand, from a 1796 letter to Mallet du Pan by French naval officer Charles Louis Etienne, Chevalier de Panat: Personne n'est corrigé; personne n'a su ni rien oublier ni rien appendre. "Nobody has been corrected; no one has known to forget, nor yet to learn anything."

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Charles_Maurice_de_Talleyrand-P%C3%A9rigord

Catholic Activist:

We need to emulate the Three Wise Men because they followed the star wherever it led them. The heavens are a manifestation of the Logos which is God. All I'm asking you to do is follow the star. It will lead you to where it led the three wise men. The logos incarnate is the ultimate destination of all those who follow "truth and reason." Why do you get so hostile, when all I'm trying to do is help you? Why do you weary me with questions, when you don't want to hear the answer?

Claire Khaw:

Logic tells me that law must follow morality and morality comes from religion.

There are 3. We can't be Jews and Christianity has failed. Islam does not need to be quarantined from the state. Indeed, its rules must be incorporated into the state. The Koran is written as if that was the intention and it is. You must at least read the book before going any further on this, or you are being wilfully blind.

Read it, and then ask yourself what Catholic or Christian principle it infringes: none.

____________________________________________________________________

*  1) Nationalism cannot exist without patriarchy.
2) Patriarchy cannot exist without traditional marriage ie the enforcement of its most important rule: the forbidding and punishing of extramarital sex
3) Patriarchy cannot exist without theocracy ie the existence of laws that forbid and punish extramarital sex
4) Man created God for the above reasons.
5) Patriarchy is a society that prioritises the preferences of married fathers.
6) Matriarchy is a society that priorities the preferences of the never married single mother.
7) All advanced societies are patriarchies.
8) All primitive and declining societies are matriarchies.
9) Discovering that you live in a matriarchy is discovering that your society has terminal cancer.
10) If the problem is matriarchy, the solution must be patriarchy.
11) If the solution is patriarchy, the solution must also be theocracy.
12) If the solution is theocracy, the solution must also be Islam and an Islamic Revolution.
13) Christianity is now indistinguishable from liberalism and this must mean it is no longer fit for the purpose of maintaining morality and patriarchy.
14) Once you have eliminated the impossible then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the solution.
15) Islam is the most advanced version of the Abrahamic religions because it guarantees freedom of belief with https://quran.com/2/256
16) If Islam is "Judaism Lite", then Secular Koranism is "Islam Lite". http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/secular-koranism.html
17) Because Christianity required its adherents to declare a belief in an absurdity as an article of faith, it was bound to fail when it became legal to deny the Trinity.
18) Because Christianity relies on a corruptible clergy to maintain morality, it was bound to fail in an environment of sexual liberation.
19) Because Islam assumes that law should conform with morality and morality conform with religion, it understands that it is the law that limits our immorality.
20) The Koran warns urges us to use reason and warns us against adhering to the religion of our ancestors just because it is the religion of our ancestors. https://quran.com/2/170
21) I am not Muslim but agnostic, but if it is really the case that Christianity is irreparable, hadn't we better replace it with Islam?
22) Wouldn't the Koranic prohibition against usury significantly curtail Jewish power?
23) Are gentiles in the West and their politicians more gullible and exploitable if they live in a matriarchy?
24) If Westerners lived in a one party theocracy promoting patriarchal moral values, wouldn't this mean that they and their government would not be so easily led into irrational and self-destructive policies?
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