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Showing posts with label Tom Holland. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Tom Holland. Show all posts

Wednesday, 28 October 2020

Liberalism was a French Revolutionary reaction against the Catholic Church promoting totalitarian Christianity

Why the liberal West is a Christian creation by John Gray      https://www.newstatesman.com/dominion-making-western-mind-tom-holland-revie  

But of course. Our identity is created by what happened to us and what we did about it.  


In Pontius Pilate (1961), a Borges-like fiction by the French literary theorist and former surrealist Roger Caillois, the Roman governor of Judea who ordered the death by crucifixion of Jesus instead releases him under the protection of imperial legionaries. The charismatic Jewish prophet carries on preaching and dies at a great age. He leaves a reputation for holiness, and pilgrimages are made to his grave. But because of Pilate’s decision, made after a night of sleepless wavering, there is no Christianity.


No sacrifice of his life by Jesus, no being worshipped for 2000 years as the co-equal of the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God by idolatrous and blasphemous Christians who obviously don't fear God's wrath because they are only pretending to be Christian and are more invested in their idolatry and blasphemy. If they did believe in the Abrahamic God, they would want to obey His laws and fear the consequences of not so doing. After all, the Ten Commandments do forbid idolatry and blasphemy, and Christians must be aware of this. 


If Tom Holland is right, there would be no modern secular civilisation either. The liberal West is a creation of the Christian religion, and continues to assert that its values are universal even though it has rejected the faith that inspired them:


Liberalism originates from the French Revolution and the French Revolution represented a rejection of the monarchy and its right of divine rule and the religion associated with it - Christianity. 


Christianity, it seemed, had no need of actual Christians for its assumptions still to flourish… The trace elements of Christianity continued to infuse people’s morals and presumptions so utterly that many failed even to detect their presence. Like dust particles so fine as to be invisible to the naked eye, they were breathed in equally by everyone: believers, atheists and those who never paused to think about religion.


The Noahide laws are the universal minimum standard of morality for righteous gentiles and therefore expect advanced civilisations to adhere to all or some of the Noahide laws. It is absurdly chauvinistic to assume that morality is unique to Christianity when Christianity itself was derived from Judaism. We already know Christianity is a created religion created by a heretical Jew to worship another as the co-equal of the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God who created the Universe, making Christianity not only idolatrous but guilty of Supreme Blasphemy. After all, if you wanted to blaspheme against the Abrahamic God, you can't go any further than to worship a man convicted of blasphemy against the Abrahamic God as the co-equal of the Abrahamic God, can you?  https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-noahide-laws/ 


Secular liberals dismiss Christianity as a fairy tale, but their values and their view of history remain essentially Christian. The Christian story tells of the son of God being put to death on a cross. In the Roman world, this was the fate of criminals and those who challenged imperial power. Christianity brought with it a moral revolution. The powerless came to be seen as God’s children, and therefore deserving of respect as much as the highest in society. History was a drama of sin and redemption in which God – acting through his son – was on the side of the weak.


We can only wonder at why Constantine decided to run the Roman Empire under Christianity. Perhaps he saw the Abrahamic God as more simpatico to more imperial subjects than Jupiter Optimus Maximus. 


Modern progressive movements have renewed this sacred history, though it is no longer God but “humanity” – or its self-appointed representatives – that speaks for the powerless. In many ways, the West today is more fiercely self-righteous than it was when it was professedly Christian. The social justice warriors who denounce Western civilisation and demand that its sins be confessed and repented would not exist without the moral inheritance of Christianity. As Tom Holland writes, “Had it been otherwise, then no one would ever have got woke.”


It is interesting that Holland is assuming that being "woke" is a good thing rather than yet another sign of the galloping degeneracy of the Western matriarchy.

He tells us his view of Christianity changed as a result of his study of the ancient world. As a teenager, he was like many others in seeing the biblical God as “the po-faced enemy of liberty and fun”. When he read Edward Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776), he was happy to accept that the triumph of Christianity meant “an ‘age of superstition and credulity’”. Unlike many, Holland did not stay stuck in a posture of adolescent scorn for the religion in which he had been reared. Twenty years of reading and writing about classical antiquity wore away his youthful admiration for pagan culture.


Caesar killed a million Gauls and enslaved a million more. Across the Roman world, wailing infants could be found on the roadside, on rubbish heaps or in drains, left there to perish. Female infants who were rescued would be raised as slaves or sold to brothels. It wasn’t simply Roman callousness that Holland was repelled by. It was “the complete lack of any sense that the poor or the weak might have the slightest intrinsic value”. His values were not those of classical civilisation, he realised, still less of “human nature”. They were the values of the modern West’s Christian past.


Holland does not seem aware that more than a millennium before the codification of the Geneva Conventions, most of the fundamental categories of protection could be found in Islamic teachings. Or, he was aware of this, but chose to ignore it. https://www.middleeasteye.net/big-story/islamic-law-and-rules-war 


As Holland shows, the triumph of Christianity was a rupture in Western civilisation. There is nothing at all self-evident about the equal intrinsic worth of all human beings or the inherent preciousness of individual persons. These values – which secular thinkers nowadays take for granted – were placed at the heart of the Western world by Christianity. (Holland says comparatively little about how they developed within Judaism.) In the final analysis, liberal humanism is a footnote to the Bible.


Western imperialism culturally appropriates whatever it wants from Jews and Muslims and then takes credit for them, and those who are not victors and do not write history must suffer as they must.  


Holland focuses on the story of Jesus’s crucifixion, which by showing God in the form of a broken and tormented human being upended the pagan worship of vitality and beauty. But if anything, this may understate the moral revolution that Christianity accomplished. The nature of morality itself changed. There is nothing in Aristotle about humility or brotherly love. In the Ethics he celebrates the “great-souled man” contemplating the universe and admiring his own magnificence. Altruism – nowadays commonly viewed as the heart of morality – was not much prized in the ancient world. Followers of Stoicism were encouraged to perform public duties, and Epicureans instructed others in how to be happy. But helping suffering human beings through acts of self-sacrifice was not required by morality, or especially admired. The fact that Christians were ready to be martyred for their faith marked them out to the Roman authorities as practitioners of a strange and sinister cult.


Martyrdom was not first practised by Christians, but by Jews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sacrifice_in_Jewish_law


Holland comes into his own when he shows how Christianity created the values of the modern Western world. Not all Christians accepted the idea of original sin. Pelagius (AD 360-418) believed the only reason human beings act badly is that they have been accustomed to doing wrong from childhood – a view repeated in modern times by generations of liberals who have never heard of the early British theologian. Holland goes on to tell how the medieval French scholastic Peter Abelard (1079-1142) was accused of heresy for his assertion that God’s world was rational and governed by laws that humans could understand, only for this belief to inspire the founding of universities all over Christendom. As much as any Enlightenment thinker, it was Abelard who infused the European mind with the spirit of progress.


I really don't think universities are an exclusively Christian invention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_higher-learning_institutions


In later sections of the book, Holland tells of the horror of the conquistadores when they realised the scale of the Mexican practice of human sacrifice, and of a 16th-century experiment in theocratic communism in the German city of Münster. He examines the remorseless exploration of the predatory moral consequences of mechanistic materialism by the Marquis de Sade – an Enlightenment thinker who really did reject Christian values. He examines the anti-Christianity of Lenin and Hitler and the anti-Nazi Christianity of JRR Tolkien, the Christian character of John Lennon’s atheism and the role of Christianity in shaping the moral culture that gave birth to the #MeToo movement. There are many, many more brilliant insights and vignettes.


Because Christianity was not enough of an opium of the masses, they fell prey to Nazism and Communism. As for #MeToo, that was more a manifestation of promiscuous female victimhood after decades of sexually liberated feminism than Christian virtue, surely?


Dominion presents a rich and compelling history of Christendom. What makes the book riveting, though, is the devastating demolition job it does on the sacred history of secular humanism. Holland summarises this intellectual folk tale:


The triumph of the Church had been an abortion of everything that made for a humane and civilised society. Darkness had descended on Europe. For a millennium and more, popes and inquisitors had laboured to snuff out any spark of curiosity, or inquiry, or reason… That nothing in this narrative was true did not prevent it from becoming wildly popular.


It is a tediously familiar mythology that no amount of historical evidence is likely to dislodge. It was Christian bishops and theologians, as Holland points out, who opposed the enslavement of indigenous peoples in Latin America, and Aristotle who was invoked to defend it. Secular liberals will immediately point out that slavery was practised throughout Christendom during much of its history. Of course this is so, but the fact does not alter Holland’s central point. Even if Christianity in power sanctioned all manner of evils, it set a standard of goodness that simply did not exist in the pagan world.


"A standard of goodness that simply did not exist in the pagan world"? What about the Muslim world? And how are standards of goodness to be measured?


At the same time Christianity brought with it a new evil of its own. The very universality of the Christian message, its insistence that all human beings are equal in the sight of God, inspired a ferocious assault on other faiths. Christians made a claim to unique possession of the truth with no parallel in pagan religion, and the result was an unprecedented type of repression. As Holland writes: “A Church that proclaimed itself universal had, it seemed, no response to those who rejected it save persecution.” The rise of Christianity spelt the end for pagan toleration.


To be sure, the pagan world did not practise toleration in a modern sense. As the death of Socrates showed, there was no recognition of freedom of thought as any kind of human right. Yet Greco-Roman polytheism recognised that human beings need a variety of faiths, myths and illusions. Christianity destroyed this ancient tolerance, and in doing so inaugurated the modern world.


The Roman Empire had all the apparatus of state to enforce the totalitarianism of Christianity.  


“Christianity spreads in two ways: through conversion and through secularisation.” This incisive observation, cited by Holland as coming from an unnamed Indian historian, encapsulates much of the argument of Dominion. Secular modernity is not the negation of Christendom but its continuation in another form. Bien-pensant atheists who bang on about how much more civilised we would be if only Christianity had not existed have not asked where their conception of civilisation came from. Nietzsche was closer to the truth. If you regret the rise of Christianity, you must regret the rise of liberalism, human rights and belief in progress as well.


Liberalism/The French Revolution was an understandable reaction to Christianity/the Catholic Church/the divine rule of monarchs. 


Holland leaves the reader with a question. If the religion on which liberal values were based is dying out in the West, what future can these values have? He writes:


If secular humanism derives not from reason or from science, but from the distinctive course of Christianity’s evolution – a course that, in the opinion of growing numbers in Europe and America, has left God dead – then


Holland seems to be suggesting that liberal values cannot survive the collapse of their Christian foundations. This is not a view confined to Christian believers. The nihilistic French author Michel Houellebecq appears to be thinking along similar lines, as are some atheists and agnostics. Yet I think this misreads our situation.


Houellebecq is simply saying that Islam with its Book of Rules from God will move into the moral vacuum of Christianity that only relies on the hearsay evidence of mortal and fallible men about the sayings and doings of a revolutionary executed for blasphemy.


It may well be that liberal values as they were understood in the past are on the way out. But the source of their decline is more paradoxical than the mere loss of Christian belief. Beyond the West, Christianity is undergoing a revival. In post-communist Russia, for example, the Orthodox Church has re-emerged strongly. But the distinctive pattern of development through which Christianity generated liberal values in western Europe was not replicated in eastern Orthodoxy, and there is nothing liberal about resurgent Christianity in Russia. The same is true, for different reasons, in Africa. In the West, liberalism is not fading away with Christian belief but becoming more zealous and dogmatic. Ironically, today’s ultra-liberals have more than a little in common with the Christians who destroyed the pluralistic tolerance of the ancient world. Policing opinion, shutting down debate and bent on extirpating any beliefs and values other than their own, they are like the early Christians in seeing themselves as actors in an unfolding story of sin and redemption.


It is a puzzle why Holland equates the success of Christianity with its resemblance to Liberalism. It would be like Nazis rejoicing at the idea of their party becoming more Jewish.


Roger Caillois’s fiction suggests a truer view of history. The rise of Christianity was an accident, and the liberal West a spin-off. Of course the hand of God can be seen in the decision Pontius Pilate made to have Jesus crucified. In recognition of Pilate’s pivotal role in the Christian story, he is canonised as a saint in the Coptic and Ethiopian churches. But unless these and later events were providentially ordered, the triumph of Christianity was fortuitous. If any one of an uncountable number of contingencies had not occurred, Europe might still be shaped by a mix of polytheistic cults and classical philosophy and Christianity would never have spread across the globe.


If the Abrahamic God exists and is in control of His Creation, then He may have allowed three global Christian empires to rise and flourish for His own reasons. 

Could it be that Judaism was ploughing, Christianity was sowing and Islam harvesting?



 

Such a world might be better, in some respects, than the one that actually exists; but it would lack the vision of human equality and moral progress that formed the modern West. If they read Dominion, as they certainly should, secular liberals might pause to reflect that they acquired their deepest values by chance from a religion they despise. 


Are the "deepest values" of secular liberals in fact some or most but not all of the Noahide laws?

Tuesday, 7 April 2020

Jay on smug liberal intellectuals like Tom Holland



7:00  I criticise because I care.
8:00  Doctor took one look at Boris on Zoom and ordered him to go straight to hospital
https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/07/doctor-took-one-look-boris-zoom-ordered-go-straight-hospital-12519300/
8:30  When Jay met Boris
9:00  Jay gives advice on how to breathe.
10:00  Michael Gove
16:00  OV
17:00  Gandalf and Church of Entropy
24:00  Tom Holland
https://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com/2020/04/if-it-werent-for-atheists-liberals.html from 57:00
27:00  Tom Holland conflated Christianity with Liberalism and secularism
29:00  Tom Holland's category error of conflating Liberalism with Christianity with the administration of the British Empire


31:00  Men in a patriarchy are more "rapey"
32:00  The reason why Church of Entropy rejects the term "Hinduism"
33:00  The repulsiveness of the smug liberal intellectual that is Tom Holland
38:00  Hinduism v The Vedas
39:00  An offensive nickname
40:00  Jay taking the plunge with me
41:00  Jay's views on the economy
43:00  The velocity of the circulation of money
44:00  When the government made a decision to have a recession
45:00  Trump's two trillion stimulus
48:00  Selective bailout-ism
52:00  Jon Vance
https://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com/2020/04/ex-secular-koranist-jon-vance-convert.html
https://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com/2020/04/ex-secular-koranist-jon-vance-says-dont.html
55:00  Tower of Babel
57:00  Caroline Flack, former presenter of Love Island, dies aged 40
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/feb/15/former-love-island-presenter-caroline-flack-dies-aged-40
1:02:00  Neologisms are a sign of schizophrenia.
1:04:00  The morons and vegetables in the chat
1:08:00  Brundlefly, Stephen James, El Jim, Persian Drum, Conops
1:11:00  James STFU, OV and Conops
1:14:00  The purpose of religion
1:16:00  A date  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/date
1:19:00  St Valentine's Day
1:19:00  Church of Entropy was pleased to see Jay in her live chat
https://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com/2020/04/doooovid-alt-right-jew-does-not-discuss.html 3:50:00
1:23:00  Our roles
1:25:00  Our self-identity
1:27:00  Consistency
1:28:00  Gandalf larping as this and that
1:29:00  Jay says Church of Entropy can be charming.
1:30:00  Having a recognisable brand
1:31:00  Conops on the alt-right
1:32:00  Mental health
1:33:00  A healthy sense of self-identity
1:34:00  Gender relations and gender identity
1:35:00  Antisemitism, Islamophobia, racism and xenophobia
1:36:00  Malaysian ministry apologises for 'avoid nagging' lockdown tips
Citizens mocked advice for women to wear makeup, dress neatly and not nag husbands
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/malaysian-government-apologises-over-coronavirus-lockdown-tips-for-women

Are non-Muslim gentile men more likely to suffer cabin fever and inflict domestic violence on their female partners than Jewish and Muslim husbands during the Covid-19 quarantine? If so, what could be the reason?
https://ask.fm/oneparty4all/answers/161402841729

Do you think that more non-Muslim gentile men per capita will have murdered their female sex partners during the quarantine than Jews and Muslims per capita?
https://ask.fm/oneparty4all/answers/161461546113

1:38:00  Investment advice
1:39:00  Specific commodities
1:40:00  Gambling and alcohol
1:41:00  The desperate gamble.
1:42:00  Passenger boarding bridge (PBD)
1:43:00  President and Vice President
1:45:00  Shortening the period of chaos
1:45:00  Returning to talking politics
1:48:00  Sexual corruption leads to moral corruption.
The Noahide laws forbid sexual immorality.  quran.com/24/2

Sunday, 5 April 2020

If it weren't for atheists, liberals, nihilists and nationalists, I would be a success



2:00  Coronavirus COVID-19 - Science, Economics, Technological & Societal Effects with Church of Entropy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba7h4iJ1dyc

3:00  What do Pesach and Hamilton have in common?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L7gFCPD-8M

4:00  Jay is popular because he represents Islamophobes. That is why I have made him the archetype of Western Man.
9:00  What Doooovid is
10:00  Week In Review

11:00  Tom Holland: Impact of Plagues, Pandemics & Christianity on the West -- from Ancient World to Today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOrm-RtMr8k

13:00  Narcissistic Personal Disorder, undiagnosed ADHD and other forms of mental illness
14:00  Stupid, scared, skint and soon potless
16:00  Mad and silly category errors
17:00  The consequence of stupidity and madness are the same.
17:30  Bad people
18:00  Major institutions of the West not fit for purpose
19:00  Badly-parented sick children who won't take their medicine
20:00  Western Man has been orphaned from his traditions because he has no religion.
21:00  The educational and justice system, media and nationalism
22:00  Nationalists who don't care about their own racial hygiene, don't care that they are a matriarchy, and never ask themselves this question:

If people deserve the government they get, what kind of government does a society of bastards whose parents are sex offenders deserve?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2285670/Most-children-of-British-mothers-born-out-of-wedlock.html

23:00  The morally rotten nationalist
24:00  Nationalists who are too cool for rules other than the rule of being a white gentile who is not a Muslim
25:00  Larping as a Christian
26:00  Jay is deep down an atheist and a nihilist even as he larps as a Christian.
27:00  The archetype of Western Man and Woman
28:00  Antisemitic, Islamophobic and racist
29:00  Hatred as group identity
30:00  Something much worse than me
31:00  A magic invisible friend
32:00  The Abrahamic God
33:00  Jay could have been a CEO if his energies had not been misdirected?
34:00  Jay's attraction to low company
35:00  Celebrity culture
36:00  The rules
37:00  The practice of marriage
38:00  The eugenics of marriage
39:00  Richard Spencer and Greg Johnson

40:00  85% illegitimacy rate of Jamaica
According to the UN, in Mexico and Canada the illegitimacy rate is 38 percent; in El Salvador it’s 73 percent; and it’s 86 percent in Jamaica.
https://cis.org/Report/Illegitimate-Nation
David Starkey claims 'the whites have become black'
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/13/david-starkey-claims-whites-black

41:00  Boomer Remover and Pillow Day
43:00  Matriarchy
44:00  The psychology of denial
45:00  The principle of being a political activist
46:00  Khavianism on Week In Review
47:00  An atheist larping as a Hasidic Jew
57:00  Tom Holland
58:00  Christianity
59:00  The impact of Christianity AKA secularism
1:00:00  Christianity as a virus, according to Tom Holland
1:01:00  The Americans quarantining the church from their state
1:02:00  The US constitution
1:03:00 Christian on Christian religious persecution
1:04:00  quran.com/2/256
1:05:00  Tom Holland thinks Christianity means secularism.
1:06:00  Cathedrals are now museums.
1:07:00  Doctrine of the Trinity Act 1813
1:08:00  Isaac Newton
1:09:00  Hinduism in India under the Raj
1:10:00  Islam
1:12:00  "profoundly Christian assumptions" = "profoundly Liberal assumptions"
1:13:00  Jewish emancipation
1:14:00  Jewish identity
1:15:00  Caliphate
1:15:30  The distinction between religion and politics is a distinction without a difference.
1:16:00  Religion has a very specific meaning.
1:17:00  Compare the mish-mash of Jayism with Judaism
1:18:00  No religion, no identity.
1:19:00  No rules, no moral compass.
1:20:00  I, philosopher
1:21:00  Nihilism
1:22:00  Jewish identity crisis
1:23:00  Should gentiles apologise to Jews for having corrupted their morals?
1:25:00  Gay marriage
1:25:30  Jews have a continuing religious obligation to exterminate the Amalekites. Instead, they marry them.
1:26:00  The Amalek
1:27:00  Idolatry, blasphemy and the Noahide laws
1:28:00  quran.com/18/4
1:29:00  Emunah and bitachon
1:30:00  Christianity is a parachute that does not work.
1:31:00  Unprincipled Jews and Muslims
1:32:00  Illegitimacy
1:33:00  Tom Holland's religious feelings
1:35:00  Tom Holland concedes the uses of religion, which he attributes to idolatrous and blasphemous Christianity.
1:36:00  Tom Holland values the morality system of religion.
1:37:00  Tom Holland ties himself in knots with his double-mindedness.
1:38:00  Cultural Christian
1:40:00  Tolkien: "Myths can be true."
1:41:00  Stories
1:43:00  The incoherent hatred of Islamophobes and antisemites
1:46:00  Having your cake and eating it-ism
1:47:00  Christianity and Covid-19
1:50:00  The idolatry and blasphemy of Christianity
1:51:00  Christianity and hypocrisy
1:52:00  Christianity or the Koran?
1:53:00  What do Pesach and Hamilton have in common?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L7gFCPD-8M
1:57:00

The British are idolaters with idols of clay feet. The Doctrine of Parliamentary Sovereignty is the woman's prerogative to change her mind giving her prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages - the unaccountability that is power without responsibility.
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

2:02:00  The casting vote
2:03:00  Mormonism

Saturday, 26 November 2016

What have George Osborne, Theresa May and Tom Holland got in common?

George Osborne

Theresa May

Tom Holland, cricket bore and classical historian

My, hasn't Donald Trump - not standing with his legs apart - got large hands!


Future social historians will ask themselves why the political classes of a degenerate liberal democracy are standing with their legs apart.

Can you imagine a real man like Donald Trump resorting to such a pathetic attempt to convey masculinity and command?

We now talk of fake news. There is now fake masculinity, fake femininity and fake displays of leadership and authority.

The less you have of something you want, the more you want to pretend you have it by adopting ridiculous positions of display.

I'm warning Michael Gove not to adopt that stance if he is still hoping to salvage his political career. It is pathetic that he's trying to get people to like him by appearing to angle for a gig on Strictly Come Dancing. It's only for retired and fallen politicians who need something to top up their income, rather like footballers whose careers have come to an end wanting compo from the Football Association for being sexually abused as a child when they never complained at the time, not even to their parents. If he wants to angle for a position, he should be up to challenging and discussing my ideas, or even more daringly, agreeing with them.
































Tuesday, 12 April 2016

Why Muslims hate liberalism and how liberals are suffering from hypocrisy and dementia


Saturday, 5 March 2016

Tom Holland hates Islam so much he again denies the prophet of Islam existed


http://www.lse.ac.uk/publicEvents/events/2016/02/LitFest20160227t1700vSZT.aspx


Tom Holland
There are other utopias fashioned by ancient empires or at least ideals of ancient utopias that continue to exert a profound influence to this day, and the most obvious one would be the state established by Muhammad supposedly in Medina which continues to inspire billions of people across the globe and to act as a geopolitical motor to this day. The question of whether Muhammad established a state in Medina is massively open to question, but what we can see when we trace the evolution, the process by which this state came to be enshrined, what we see is that there was an enormous amount of ideological programming going on by the empire of the Arabs that had been raised in the aftermath of Muhammad's career and which justified its imperial sway and justified its moral mission in terms of what the Caliphs and the lawyers and the scholars who lived in the Caliphate for two centuries after Muhammad existed looked back to this period and constructed a model of how Islam had come into being and how Muhammad had lived and functioned and the character of his prophetic inspiration that gave to the foundation of the Caliphate a literally God-given sense of identity. And Islam I think now that Marxism has essentially imploded as an ideology, Islam exists as the most potent illustration of how utopia can legitimise empires in the past but can continue to exert an influence to this day, so utopias, I think, and the re-writing of history, to illustrate that utopias actually did exist - it's an incredibly significant aspect of history.

This is rather a confusing use of words. Utopias by definition do not exist, so I interpret what Holland the raging seething Islamophobe to be saying is this: that the propaganda value of Islamic myths is powerful and. crucially, more powerful than everything else that has ever existed before, and is much much bigger than Judaism and Christianity, now that Marxism has imploded.

Liberal-Feminism has no comparable mythologies that engage our emotions, moral convictions or romantic destiny.

Holland has seen the writing on the wall, and is obviously very very afraid: the Whig Interpretation of History is not a patch on Islamic eschatology promising divine purpose and human destiny.

It is interesting that Holland's verbiage consists mostly of abstractions that only the educated few who take the trouble can understand, and will mean nothing at all to the man in the street.


If Britain had not declared war on Germany in 1914, WW1 would have just stayed a European war.


Tom Holland:
ISIS are clearly the most utopianist organisation operating in geopolitics at the moment. I think we should take what they say about wanting to usher in the end of days literally. I think lots of them do want to do that and I think they are not talking in a Marxist sense about material culture  or what would be the material basis for utopia. The are talking about utopia in a divine sense. They are attempting to usher in heaven on earth and to cast themselves as people who will inherit heaven when they die. Their vision of the future is absolutely grounded in a particular understanding of a particular moment in the past because for Islam probably more than any other religious or cultural ideology that existed, what Islam has succeeded in doing is kind of dropping a sheet anchor to a particular moment to a particular time and establishing that as a mirror into which humanity has to look to understand what the will of God is, what the nature of a utopia should be. So in essence the desire to recreate that moment is hardwired into Islamic Utopianism even more than it is in any analogous tradition within Christianity. 

Under this verbiage we may deduce that Holland is saying that the story of Jesus as an executed revolutionary can in no way compare to the power and glory of Muhammad winning wars and establishing the world's first Islamic State.

The Council of Nicea tried to jazz up Christ's sacrifice by saying he was simultaneously God Himself and His son, but people in the 21st century tend not to be taken in by such absurdities. If most are already atheists, then all the more would they be in difficulty believing that a mere man is also God Himself and His son.

But what if Christians dumped the Trinity?

Then they would be no different to Jews and Muslims. It is the Trinity that makes Christians feel special and better than Jews and Muslims.

What would a rational Christian - if such a person exists - believe in if he could no longer even bring himself to pay lip service to the absurdity of the Trinity?  He could be a Jew, but the Old Testament is so harsh with stoning for every little infraction and doesn't even allow divorce. The Koran on the other hand has a whole chapter on divorce and even its harshest punishment - crucifixion - gives the state the option of clemency. http://quran.com/5/33

Judaism is an exclusive golf club, Islam is an inclusive political party in a single party theocracy, like Iran, which seems to be doing OK these days, all things considering.

Margaret MacMillan:

I think there are two kinds of utopias: ones that exist in the imagination or exist out of time or in another alternative reality, but those who talk about utopias often talk about a Golden Age in the past and also something that will come again so they are locating them in human history. We may see their reasoning as absolutely wrong and the utopias they project into the past or claim to know from the past are not real at all, but they are nevertheless arguing that they are there in the past and saying we have proof. They were there. We know that there was that world that existed in time and we are going to have another such world that will exist in a future time. So I think they are very much woven into history. 

Instead of utopia, why don't the panel talk about propaganda?

A superior man, in regard to what he does not know, shows a cautious reserve. If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music do not flourish. When proprieties and music do not flourish, punishments will not be properly awarded. When punishments are not properly awarded, the people do not know how to move hand or foot. Therefore a superior man considers it necessary that the names he uses may be spoken appropriately, and also that what he speaks may be carried out appropriately. What the superior man requires is just that in his words there may be nothing incorrect.

— Confucius, Analects, Book XIII, Chapter 3, verses 4-7

Tom Holland:


The prime difference of Islam and Christianity is that Christianity is apolitical. Jesus dies a political failure. He does not draw his sword, he does not establish a state. His kingdom is in heaven and that means there has always been this suspicion of political orders within Christianity that you do not have within Islam, that Muhammad supposedly establishes a state that serves as a model for how God wants humans to live.  The fact that it is almost certainly a fiction doesn't alter the fact that  lots and lots of Muslims throughout history and certainly in the current time believe in that and believe that what God wants is for the state that existed in early 7th century Medina to be established [contemptuous laughter] in whatever way it can be in the present. 

Because Holland hates and fears Islam, his stratagem is to pretend that not only does God not exist, neither did His prophet Muhammad. http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/tom-hollands-untold-history-of-islam.html
What would be even more insulting to Muslims even more than bad scatological drawings of Muhammad than pretending that not only does their God not exist, neither did Muhammad?

Then Muslims would feel so stupid for believing in lies whose liar didn't even exist.

That would soon put those pesky Muslims in their place.

Or would it?

Christians cannot agree with each other on which of the laws of the Old Testament to obey without accusing each other of being Judaizers

  23:00  CLAIRE  KHAW joins.  24:00  Moral convictions based on Noahide laws 26:00  Gentiles working for Jews on the Sabbath https://www.cha...